01-19-2023, 09:12 AM | #61 |
[Nobody liked that.]
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
I didn't really see what went down, but it seems maybe a vote for a rerun should be done before maybe doing other games in a thread vote with it. Feels kinda bad to see a setup get washed and would sit better with me if we did that first.
But I wasn't really playing, so fine grain of salt of course. |
01-19-2023, 12:39 PM | #62 |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
I think roundbox deserves MVP this game for nailing Raeko D0. Second place goes to Charu or Wolfe.
Town had an incredible coalition by D1. I had roundbox, Wolfe, and Charu locked as town, so we had 4/8 players as one voting bloc, which is one of the strongest I've ever seen in recent memory (and on D1, no less) |
01-19-2023, 03:13 PM | #63 | |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
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01-19-2023, 05:25 PM | #64 |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
Roundbox MVP for that Raeko call out IMO
Charu/DBP/Shado as a close second place |
01-19-2023, 06:12 PM | #65 | |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
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this post will also only discuss modkills during a day phase, particularly those that occur towards the end of a day phase. Modkills outside of a day phase are pretty rare anyways. I recall charu once getting modkilled in an anon-game nightphase, and ffa getting nightkilled during the pregame phase, but I think every other modkill that's happened on FFR has been during a day phase, or as the dayphase ends (basically in conjunction with the lynch, like when star and I modkilled tamburini in the most recent Fire Emblem game) town does not get hurt worse than wolves when modkills happen during a day phase... like the vast majority of the time. This is assuming a modkill does not take the place of the lynch. The vast majority of the time, modkills occur for inactivity on FFR (which btw is the least offensive type of modkill to the integrity of the game. I'll stop with the cutaway thoughts but yeah, its good that inactivity is the main problem, rather than angleshooting or cheating or something) Because most modkills occur because of inactivity, town eliminates a player who is almost always a ? for the solve, and it harms wolves to lose this regardless of whether the player was a wolf or not in almost all scenarios (the player can be a PR, or be a greencheck from an invest role or something, but I think we can all at least acknowledge what I'm arguing here). The argument here of the cause (inactivity) benefitting wolves is correct, but the modkill deals with that as effectively as a day-vigi could. It does rob town of a lynch, but that player was likely in the POE, and it thins the POE nearly exclusively as a result. Wolves win the game by escaping the POE. Granting town what is almost guaranteed to be two shots at killing a wolf (or an evil, for the sake of my following example) when there normally would be one. If anyone recalls the Corporations anon game, a late modkill virtually speedran the game because the 2nd to last threat to town was modkilled, leaving town with a chance to immediately look for the serial killer-esque role, which was immediately found. Most games are also balanced around odd starting numbers with a day start, with wolves able to kill max 1 player per night. I won't explain the math of this entirely, but modkills (especially when compounding) grant town like an adrenaline shot of early info if they don't take the place of a lynch. Its classic "I'll gladly pay tomorrow for a hamburger today." also it can incentivize getting modkilled in order to solve a game btw. it is inarguable that, for example, getting modkilled in a game with a f4 as town that is in the POE could benefit town's win% immensely. In this situation it is absolutely tantamount that the modkill take the place of the lynch. ----------------------------------- Lastly, and not related to any of my argument, I appreciate all discussion around modkills immensely. They're kind of camp-y in the way that art can be so gauche that it becomes artistic. People are kinda fixated on them as a result, I guess. It is interesting to see such discussion around this topic, and I know the main reasoning for it is because of the new rules that appear destined to be written in most/all OPs of games. We do need to figure out a standard where the most people are happy with the result, and discussion is how we do it, so I'm glad to see such engagement on it. Maybe part of it has to do with the game being so drama-free? Glad to see it regardless of the cause.
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01-19-2023, 06:14 PM | #66 |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
oh, and for lar specifically, that's part of why I think modkills could and probably should wait until after EOD, rather than 90 or 60 minutes before. I understand the argument entirely that the game is unlosable for town after a theoretical point, and yeah
that's kind of stupid that the game continues but it also has to be that way if you're modkilling before EOD finishes.
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01-19-2023, 06:21 PM | #67 |
Snivy! Dohoho!
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
My only contribution to this topic is that, in all honesty, I didn't mind how it was done this game... once it was clarified what would happen at EoD.
Could give town a legitimate decision of actually no-voting, lmao. |
01-19-2023, 06:33 PM | #68 |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
send me your games!!! i want at least 3 submissions and right now i only have 2!!!!!
ty
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01-19-2023, 06:33 PM | #69 |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
I do not understand this. As far as I am concerned at the moment this is untrue
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01-19-2023, 06:49 PM | #70 | |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
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you never, ever want a scenario where the last wolf (or threat to town, really) is in a suspended modkill state, you want town to immediately win am I correct in that assumption? because I don't want that either. I'd like modkills to always wait until EOD. Btw, this would have the possibly unintended effect of discouraging instas, which I know you like anyways you appear to not want this, and seem fine to leave modkills at 90 to 60 minutes before EOD. am I correct in this assumption as well?
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01-19-2023, 10:09 PM | #71 |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
@sunfans bigpost
I understand where you're coming from. I just think we disagree about the fundamental nature of an inactive, and that premise extends to our thoughts on modkills. You consider an inactive town/wolf to be a part of town/wolf. A player, albeit one whose performance, or lack thereof, obfuscates their alignment and attempts to gather info about it. If town, a weak town that forces town to create a better PoE and lynch within it, including the inactive if necessary. Removal of the inactive from the PoE helps town by removing a player they would otherwise need to lynch. I don't. I called them non-players for a reason. The reason the bar is so low to avoid the modkill is that, fundamentally, it takes the absolute bare minimum engagement in game to avoid it. A player that needs to get modkilled because they were unable to make 5 game-related posts in 48 hours is not a player. They are, at that point, a deviation from the intended game design. An imbalance that needs to be resolved. Obviously, early replacements are ideal for this. But where there is no substitute, the modkill needs to happen to allow game to continue fairly. It doesn't, at it's core, prevent the inactive meta entirely or remove inactive strats from wolf repertoires. It just sets the bar low enough to where there is a minimum amount of engagement from everyone to avoid non-players filling the roster.inning.
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01-19-2023, 10:10 PM | #72 |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
At risk of sounding hyperbolic, I personally like to stress-test arguments by putting them to their logical extremes. So let's take a hypothetical game and fill it with inactives. The maximum amount of inactives possible that would still allow for a game, essentially leaving 3 active players. In any standard size game (9-13 players), assuming that all towns and mafias except for the minimum 2T, 1M needed to play are fully inactive below the 5 post minimum. What happens to game?
If modkills aren't a thing, that game is unwinnable for town. Hell, make it a micro and it's still unwinnable for town. It essentially destroys the balance of the game when there are non-players occupying player slots with no resolution. If modkills kill the inactive players, ALL OF THEM. It still sets it to where it's F3 and both town and scum have a fighting shot at winning.
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01-19-2023, 10:15 PM | #73 |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
Where I do think you have a valid argument is the timing of the modkill.
The question really becomes "is setting the deadline to EoD-90 minutes townsided?" or "is announcing a modkill 60 minutes prior to EoD townsided?" I think it's not if the flip is withheld, for the reasons I mentioned in my earlier posts following DBPs. I think that what it does is minimize the game disruption and chaos for both sides.
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01-19-2023, 10:19 PM | #74 |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
I think the last question is one that hasn't been mentioned yet.
"is it still fair to allow town a lynch when the inactive is a wolf? doesn't that compound their advantage after wolves already took a massive hit?" which I think is a fair question. Should the rule in question be modified to discount the lynch if the modkill is a wolf? What does that look like? Allow EoD to still occur, but then announce the wolf modkill and tell people that their lynch was invalidated? It sounds ridiculous, but if you give it some thought it's not a bad idea. There's a lot of nuance that benefits from discussion here
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01-19-2023, 10:40 PM | #75 | |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
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by removing the so-called non-players from the game, you're arguing that town doesn't benefit? imo they clearly, clearly do, while wolves would almost always prefer that to remain around
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01-19-2023, 10:48 PM | #76 | |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
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Removing said players restores the balance to an extent, and avoids compounding the problem. It's not a perfect balance, but it's the best you can get if replacements aren't available
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01-19-2023, 10:52 PM | #77 |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
I think a point that is being lost here
if you take the number of times that a player has replaced out on FFR and compare it to the number of times that a player has been modkilled (for any reason, not just inactivity) we're looking at (I'm guessing) something like 6x or 7x more replacements than modkills. its not even close replacements should generally be the preference, and historically, they have been I think a better rule honestly is that the player is force-replaced so long as a replacement is available.
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01-19-2023, 10:59 PM | #78 | |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
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so what do you recommend happens if a replacement is not available?
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01-19-2023, 11:19 PM | #79 | |||
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
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I don't know why you're refusing to acknowledge the wording that I want the game to end when a win condition is achieve. This seems extremely straight forward to me; an obvious course of action for a game with any win condition Quote:
How many EODs have we played where no real discussion can happen because of inactive players, waiting to see if a vote in there slot will matter, only to see people it both alignments pop in 10 before cutoff with a series of 5 one-line posts that contribute nothing but enable their slot to continue to exist for another 78 hours? Countless. It isn't fun. It isn't engaging. It doesn't allow the majority of players to actually deduce the game and instead forces established best practices of dealing with those players----gameplay by reaction, not gameplay by engaging. It's ass, it makes it to where I don't want to play the game. I don't care what's technically more balanced at that point because the community at large is literally supporting players abusing the game to lock out the core spirit of it all by refusing to engage. Wolves got so many free wins for this, where was the outcry then that the balance needed adjusting? Killing inactives an hour out at least preserves EoD to the people willing to play it. I don't think it skews the balance too far one way or another (especially compared to certain roles and rules we've used over the years) and it's only been used twice, so until we start seeing wolves auto-losing to it repeatedly I don't see why this can't be the standard. What it seems to me us that you don't want one player's action to completely change the game in an instant, but you fail to realize that's been happening the entire time---it was just a slow, unfun, agonizing ordeal before and now it's actually something people can play around. Quote:
Yeah. Wolves don't want town to get two lunches? Play the game Town doesn't want to lose two people and possibly lose before Lylo? Play the game Both sides want to avoid that third fraction from taking out crucial targets? play the game You don't play the game then you lose. Again, this seems pretty straight forward to me |
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01-19-2023, 11:23 PM | #80 | |
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Re: TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD
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Even when they're not, players have to react differently to slots that will be replaced, keeping them around "for free" another phase or two to try and be fair to the replacement. This benefits wolves along with the initial inactivity. I've played with this rule enough to know it doesn't result in a fun, engaging or interesting experience and in many cases just drags out what could have just happened D0 with a modkilled |
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