Skill

[One_or_Eight]

Good LORD, man, have you never struck the enter key in your life?! Breaking up this wall of text with Risking's edit of it...

It's 5:41 in the morning and I haven't had much caffeine so bare with me. I am very talented at most of the hobbies I participate in, and being a long time FFR and Stepmania player (I began playing FFR when I was 12, I am now 16.)

I often ponder: Why do skills develop at a much faster rate than other people for some people? Is it perseverance? Or is it purely genetical? Or is because some people have an easier pathway to go through the later they attempt to develop the skill? I believe that the development of a hobby in general corresponds completely to have how fast someone will develop at that hobby.

In FFR, Stepmania, and even DDR the skill hierarchy has changed dramatically recently. A few years ago, even though DDR had been out for a long period of time, an AAA on a 10 foot song was regarded as an insanely good score. There were people who had been playing for years that still could not AAA even the simplest of 10 feet songs on DDR. Back then if you AAAed MAX300 you were one of the best, and people like Yasu and Take who AAAed MAX300 multiple amounts of times, occasionally even consecutively were regarded as godly.

That was a long time ago however. Now if you look around people are starting DDR and AAAing songs rated 10 feet within WEEKS of starting, and usually those people progress ALOT faster than the people who started the hobby (DDR) early, even when they surpass them. I often find that people who begin hobbies early reach a sort of skill plateau in which very little skill is developed no matter how much you try.

Any seasoned FFR or Stepmania player will agree with me. From what I've noticed, in general when you start a hobby you develop your skill at that hobby in huge bouts, eventually reaching a climax. The earliest FFR and Stepmania players are usually not the best, no matter how much they whore the games, it is often the newer players that become the best, until another generation comes, which surpasses the old best players.

It can be seen right now with FFR. cetaka and Dynam0 are semi-fresh FFR players who have been exposed to other rhythm games before joining FFR. Their growth rates were astronomical. Those two are the only examples that I can of off the top of my head, but there are plenty more, just look at the tier lists.

Right now I find that it is, for me, nearly impossible to progress any further at FFR. The only times that I have progressed are when I've started new rhythm game hobbies (the whoring of DJMAX granting me my biggest progression thus far).

When I went to arch0wl.com and was learning Stepmania my slow development tore me apart. Why couldn't I jack like some people? Why couldn't I have insane timing like some people? I often felt jealous of other people. Even now jacks are my worst enemies.

FFR and Stepmania have a lot of sub-skills that must be developed to develop the skill as a whole: The biggest three are timing, speed, and consistency; and from those sub-skills a whole slew of techniques are involved. MAing and PAing are timing techniques, one usually learns to MA and PA as a whole instead of progressing slowly.

Speed seems to be a mix of physical constraint and mental constraint and for most people starts at a certain amount and progresses VERY slowly, unlike MAing and PAing.

Consistency seems to be all mental. Everybody has the potential to reach a certain point with their scores, but some people zero in on this point MUCH easier. These people usually have scores on the same song played that only differ by one or two goods. I, for one, have terrible consistency and so do many other people. Often people will find themselves carrying a combo on every part of a song without being able to string it all together. Consistency is usual what matters most after timing and speed are learned. The believe that how fast you develop at a skill is, for the majority, dependent on the resources developed for that skill, and the techniques and skills that you've already learned and mastered than can be incorporated into that skill. I also believe that the younger you are the easier learning something is (IIRC this has been proven scientifically but I can't cite a source).

I believe that how fast a skill develops is barely dependent on how fast of a learner you actually are in the long run (obviously it makes some what of a difference but barely). What do you believe? How fast did you progress at Stepmania or FFR? Did you ever reach that dreaded skill plateau? Did you surpass it? And if so how? Tell me your stories, I am very interested in what makes up a pro.

Tell me your thoughts about my opinion. Knowledge is power, and although most seasoned rhythm game veterans already know how skill development works in sort of a mangled way I figured it would be good to come to some sort of a consensus from all of our experiences and thoughts, for the FFR and Stepmania community as a whole, and to help those driving to improve but cannot, me being one of them.

This is FFR and Stepmania, no not even Stemania and FFR, SKILL DEVELOMENT on a whole new level. You do not have to limit this thread to discussions on how your FFR and Stepmania skill developed, please feel free to explain and post about other instances that you've developed skill. I apology if a moderator or administrator feels that this is the wrong forum for this thread, please do not hesitate to move it.

[OmegaCrowman]

For me, to go from barely managing a 300 combo on CIA Rave to AAA on it, took about 4-5 months. The way I see it, is basically once you get a general feel down of arrow patterns, try a song with that pattern at a much higher BPM than you're used to, that way you can learn to hit it at a high speed when needed. Of course I still suck at songs like Lawn Wake IV because of the av/miss glitches, but it's not too bad to try doing intense songs like that or Fotbb or SP on an alt account to get a bit better at them before trying to do easier songs with a much higher PA. The main thing I dont understand about FFR is how someone like Quackies can sdg Vertex Beta, though that's by far my worst rank of 1150 or so, getting only about a 300 combo with 100+ goods, and yet I can dominate her at just about every other song known to man.

Recap: Attempt to learn hardcore speed and technique before trying to raise lower ranks.

[windsurfer-sp]

1) Yeah probably the wrong forum, most likely should be in The Game forum.

2) Please use paragraphs, a large wall of text is to hard to read. I will read it when you edit and make it easier 2 read.

[Risking]

Originally Posted by One_or_Eight

It's 5:41 in the morning and I haven't had much caffeine so bare with me. I am very talented at most of the hobbies I participate in, and being a long time FFR and Stepmania player (I began playing FFR when I was 12, I am now 16.)

I often ponder: Why do skills develop at a much faster rate than other people for some people? Is it perseverance? Or is it purely genetical? Or is because some people have an easier pathway to go through the later they attempt to develop the skill? I believe that the development of a hobby in general corresponds completely to have how fast someone will develop at that hobby.

In FFR, Stepmania, and even DDR the skill hierarchy has changed dramatically recently. A few years ago, even though DDR had been out for a long period of time, an AAA on a 10 foot song was regarded as an insanely good score. There were people who had been playing for years that still could not AAA even the simplest of 10 feet songs on DDR. Back then if you AAAed MAX300 you were one of the best, and people like Yasu and Take who AAAed MAX300 multiple amounts of times, occasionally even consecutively were regarded as godly.

That was a long time ago however. Now if you look around people are starting DDR and AAAing songs rated 10 feet within WEEKS of starting, and usually those people progress ALOT faster than the people who started the hobby (DDR) early, even when they surpass them. I often find that people who begin hobbies early reach a sort of skill plateau in which very little skill is developed no matter how much you try.

Any seasoned FFR or Stepmania player will agree with me. From what I've noticed, in general when you start a hobby you develop your skill at that hobby in huge bouts, eventually reaching a climax. The earliest FFR and Stepmania players are usually not the best, no matter how much they whore the games, it is often the newer players that become the best, until another generation comes, which surpasses the old best players.

It can be seen right now with FFR. cetaka and Dynam0 are semi-fresh FFR players who have been exposed to other rhythm games before joining FFR. Their growth rates were astronomical. Those two are the only examples that I can of off the top of my head, but there are plenty more, just look at the tier lists.

Right now I find that it is, for me, nearly impossible to progress any further at FFR. The only times that I have progressed are when I've started new rhythm game hobbies (the whoring of DJMAX granting me my biggest progression thus far).

When I went to arch0wl.com and was learning Stepmania my slow development tore me apart. Why couldn't I jack like some people? Why couldn't I have insane timing like some people? I often felt jealous of other people. Even now jacks are my worst enemies.

FFR and Stepmania have a lot of sub-skills that must be developed to develop the skill as a whole: The biggest three are timing, speed, and consistency; and from those sub-skills a whole slew of techniques are involved. MAing and PAing are timing techniques, one usually learns to MA and PA as a whole instead of progressing slowly.

Speed seems to be a mix of physical constraint and mental constraint and for most people starts at a certain amount and progresses VERY slowly, unlike MAing and PAing.

Consistency seems to be all mental. Everybody has the potential to reach a certain point with their scores, but some people zero in on this point MUCH easier. These people usually have scores on the same song played that only differ by one or two goods. I, for one, have terrible consistency and so do many other people. Often people will find themselves carrying a combo on every part of a song without being able to string it all together. Consistency is usual what matters most after timing and speed are learned. The believe that how fast you develop at a skill is, for the majority, dependent on the resources developed for that skill, and the techniques and skills that you've already learned and mastered than can be incorporated into that skill. I also believe that the younger you are the easier learning something is (IIRC this has been proven scientifically but I can't cite a source).

I believe that how fast a skill develops is barely dependent on how fast of a learner you actually are in the long run (obviously it makes some what of a difference but barely). What do you believe? How fast did you progress at Stepmania or FFR? Did you ever reach that dreaded skill plateau? Did you surpass it? And if so how? Tell me your stories, I am very interested in what makes up a pro.

Tell me your thoughts about my opinion. Knowledge is power, and although most seasoned rhythm game veterans already know how skill development works in sort of a mangled way I figured it would be good to come to some sort of a consensus from all of our experiences and thoughts, for the FFR and Stepmania community as a whole, and to help those driving to improve but cannot, me being one of them.

This is FFR and Stepmania, no not even Stemania and FFR, SKILL DEVELOMENT on a whole new level. You do not have to limit this thread to discussions on how your FFR and Stepmania skill developed, please feel free to explain and post about other instances that you've developed skill. I apology if a moderator or administrator feels that this is the wrong forum for this thread, please do not hesitate to move it.

Fixed.
At least, to the point where it isn't tl;dr.
Edit: What a ****ty 1,300 get.

[Cavernio]

This is a CT topic, however it's a specific one that also fits in the Game Forum too.

I feel like I'd reached a skill plateau loooong ago. However, I've still continued playing, and I still find my best scores improving over time, just takes a lot longer. That said though, I run into days or even weeks when I seem to have become worse than I was a month ago, so I dunno. My consistency seems pretty strong on easier songs, but not so much on harder ones. But that makes sense to me, especially seeing as I feel like I've plateaued. I have a terrible time of getting my timing bang on. I can't even AAA spontaneous hydroxide. Come close to a month back, but have since gotten worse again. (No, I'm not the greatest player.) The timing is my biggest fault, although even reading the patterns on fast songs can be difficult for me.

About people who're really awesome on 1 song, I seem to develop the opposite problem, that I have a few songs which I just can't seem to become better on. I realize this is sorta like reaching a plateau for certain songs, but I think the two are related. It seems to me like more difficult songs I get stuck on are ones which I've been playing for a long time. I'm thinking of Beethoven virus and Fantranstic specifically. I think the reason behind this is also the same reason some people can learn to do a few songs really, really well. With enough practice on a specific song, it seems like you learn the song more than learn the reading of the arrows. Since I was a pretty poor player when I began playing Fantranstic and Beethoven virus, it feels like I've 'learned' the arrows wrong, while people who ace songs well above their usual level have learned them correctly. I suggest that a different cognitive process is there once you've finally learned the song. Less arrow reading, more just keeping tracking of where you are through the arrows.

Now, it may sound silly that you can 'learn' a song wrong, but an analogous thing happens when playing an instrument. I play piano (sorta), but anyone's who's had lessons from a good teacher will know that if you play a part in a song a couple of times wrong, they'll jump on that section and make you repeat it over and over until it's correct. If you don't, you'll find that even though you know it's coming up, and you know what you have to do to fix the problem, more often than not, your fingers are going to go right back and do the incorrect thing.
Now, about correcting the issue, it's much much easier with an instrument than in FFR. You have more feedback through having more muscles used, having the sound AND having visuals, you can slow down that particular section, and you can play that section over and over until it's right.

Perhaps that I seemed to play songs well above my skill level for the longest time has caused this plateauing for me, or the 'mallearning' of songs, since I would necessarily make more mistakes being worse and not necessarily see where the mistakes specifically were since my perception of the arrows and timing wasn't there. In fact, I still have a hard time pinpointing which arrows I've missed are. That's probably a big part of my poor FFR skills.

New FFR players who develop faster have the benefit of having more selection of songs. If you learn with more songs, you're less likely to learn individual songs and perhaps will learn the hand-eye coordination, the general skill, instead. Again, specific to FFR, they've made the arrows in new songs colored for where on the beat they fall. I'm unsure if this is actually beneficial or not, but it ultimately gives more info, which will be beneficial if used. They've also made stepfiles match the songs much closer now; none of these accidentally off-beat arrows.
Perhaps, in general, people who seem to become godly so quickly on rhythm games, don't have a mental block of 'omg that's impossible' because they KNOW it is, since someone's done it before. They can also draw on experience and advice of others before they start playing.

Now, one thing which I'm still unsure about when I play, is about my level of focus. I'll find myself playing a song, and catch myself thinking about something else completely. My mind wanders. I've sorta tested myself while doing it, purposefully wandering, and then purposefully focusing, and for my own playing, I've come to no conclusions. Sometimes one works better than the other. I do however, have theory again, and it's linked to the 'learning' thing above, if not being the same thing altogether. When you're going on auto-pilot, think of it as a different intermediate process from getting to the end result of good timing. 'Learning' a song would be using auto-pilot to play it. Auto-pilot adapts, however, it doesn't have the specific, focussed control that makes concious mental notes about mistakes. Ultimately, I think the conscious level of playing is going to result in overall better playing because, again, there's more information to make use of. However, when I sorta try to figure it out for myself which is better, and I find conscious playing worse, I probably don't have a good connection between my conscious part and unconcious part, and the concious part, acting on it's own, will be terrible because it's not designed for such minute timing, while the unconcious part is. This would necessarily take practice to make good connections between these sections. So, while trying to focus only a few times, I see no benefit, although perhaps if I continually only played while focussing (which is hard!), I'd be able to get over my plateau.

I know there's papers out there which look at timing and such for playing musical instruments, which is an analogous, more complicated task, however I've not read any. I should at some point. I could see if what I've said here has been proposed or proven by scientific testing.

Another thing not mentioned above, but one which I've heard gamers in general talk about, and one I've experienced with my piano playing as well as FFR, is that sometimes taking a break of anywhere for a couple days to a month in playing, I'm suddenly better (or so it seems.) Too long of a break, and it's just downhill though. It could be something that the synapses which are created need a certain amount of time to develop fully.

[Reach]

It's a mix of genetic predisposition and preserverence. Like most things. Certain people have more aptitude for rhythm and music than other people. Some peoples hands are built more for dexterity and speed than others. This is pretty much a fact. You also have to consider genetic difference in the brain...the visual and frontal cortexes for concentration, reaction time ect.

And then on the practice side of things, noone with all the genetic disposition in the world is going to waltz to the top. You have to practice. You have to build up and tighten the muscle fibers in your arms and hands for more endurance, among many other things. The same goes for real instruments, and most things you run into in your day to day life.

[Engler]

I'd like to say that I haven't reached a plateau yet (if there is one), although I am progressing much more slowly than I used to. I personally believe that anyone can rise to the top. Practice goes a long way.