Infinity and our Existence

[Hollus]

I have some interesting ideas that I’ve been turning over in my head for a couple days now, and I was hoping that some Critical Thinkers here could help me out. I’ll try to explain as clearly as I can, but I can’t offer any guarantees.

Let’s say that you have the number 485926493 written down on a whiteboard. If you add or subtract 1 from that number, it’s not really that big of a difference. Sure, it might throw off you calculations a bit, but percentage wise, it’s only a tiny bit of the whole number.

Now let’s say that you have ∞ written down. If you add or subtract any rational number, that’s not going to make any difference at all. No matter how high that number is, it’s still 0% of infinity. The way I see it, whenever you compare natural numbers to infinity, they lose their values and become equal to zero, no matter their previous relation to other natural numbers.

To take this another step further, if you replace rational numbers with periods of time, you could say that finite amounts of time are equal to zero when you compare them to infinite amounts of time. For example, if you have an entity that has existed for an infinite amount of time, from their perspective, other finite entities haven’t really existed at all.

To summarize:
• Compared to infinity, rational numbers are equal to zero.
• Compared to infinity, finite amounts of time are equal to zero.

The main problem that I’m having is that Christianity and many other religions say that their god(s) have existed forever. You could say that our Creator, if we have one, is outside the influences of time, or that he/she created time in the first place. That kind of answer solves the question, although superficially, and it’s not really the kind of thinking that I find sufficient to properly answer these types of questions.

If we assume that our Creator’s existence is infinite, and our own existence is finite, does that mean that our existence really is zero, or just from our Creator’s point of view? Does perspective change our actual existence? Can infinite entities and finite entities even exist in the same universe? Does infinity even exist at all?

I hope that you’ve gained something from reading this, and I look forward to your replies.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Here is how I view infinity with numbers:
an infinite sequence (a limited amount shown which would repeat in the following order) 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8...etc.
an infinite sequence minus 1 (a limited amount shown which would repeat in the same order[aside from the minus one on 3]) 1+2+2+4+5+6+7+8...etc.
As for how this links to any religion or anything, that's for others to determine.

Edit: I would say that infinity exists because you can keep on adding numbers to an amount and keep on repeating the sequence forever. As far as math goes, I would say that it is an ok term to use because you can keep dividing one by three and the decimal would not terminate. Infinity symbolizes a positive never ending sequence (without being negative infinity). However, if we left a computer (which would always be powered and not tampered with) to calculate infinity for as long as time goes on, no one really knows what would happen so infinity is a doubt. Even if infinity doesn't really exist, math uses imaginary numbers like i (which equals the square root of -1 for those of you who don't know) at times. The very thought of infinity is what makes me think that it is a possibility that the world started at the present and time goes toward the past and future for ever.

[aperson]

pow(∞) > ∞

[Hollus]

Mathematically, infinity as an increasing consecutive series of numbers makes sense. The real issue is whether or not infinity is in our universe, not just on paper.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Ultimately, the truth to infinity in our universe is that nobody knows if anything is infinite, but they want to jump to conclusions about gods and other things in society based on what is "normal" to manipulate people to act a certain way. I am a person of patience (not arrogance without evidence) and if people could find a way to live for ever, I would be willing to see if there would be any answer to whether or not anything is infinite in our universe.

[jewpinthethird]

I believe mankind is incapable of fully understanding the concept of infinity and all it's ramifications simple because we are finite beings and our minds are bound to the finite.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

I believe mankind is incapable of fully understanding the concept of infinity and all it's ramifications simple because we are finite beings and our minds are bound to the finite.

But if we are some how able to become infinite beings, would you say that our minds could be bound to infinity as well?

[Lone--Wanderer]

No; our minds are in our brains, which rot rather quickly after we die. Since we don't last forever, that also tends to happen rather quickly compared to infinity.

[Raveren]

When on the subject of infinity, the line dividing sarcasm and deep thought is infinitely small.

Stupidity falls right on that line.

[Adamaja456]

The Univere IS infinite

Suppose you go to what scientists think is the end of the universe and you throw a dart. If the dart doesn't stop, then space keeps going and is infinite. But if you throw a dart and it stops, then what is beyond that barrier in space? There must be something on the other side.

I guess im just trying to say that the only thing I can grasp and being Infinity is the universe

[Lone--Wanderer]

Of course there is something beyond the universe: pure nothingness. No light travelling, no gamma rays, no random asteroids, nothing.

...I wonder what color it is...

[Adamaja456]

yes but infinite nothing is still something =]

[Raveren]

Color is the reflection of light on objects, an object tends to absorb certain colors and reflects the rest, the reflected is what we see. Black is the absence of color, meaning all colors are absorbed, while white is all colors combined, meaning all colors are reflected.

Universe=infinite, maybe, though it is already mostly pure nothing anyway, the only "somethings" are planets, stars, random meteors/comets/asteroids, gases, dust clouds, but otherwise there is nothing.

Even with those somethings, on the atomic scale, atoms are 99.9% empty space.

Let me try to make this simple:Universe is mostly nothing or empty space, if the universe were "nothing" beyond a certain "barrier", then it wouldn't be much different than it is now.

[Adamaja456]

Originally Posted by Raveren

Color is the reflection of light on objects, an object tends to absorb certain colors and reflects the rest, the reflected is what we see. Black is the absence of color, meaning all colors are absorbed, while white is all colors combined, meaning all colors are reflected.

Universe=infinite, maybe, though it is already mostly pure nothing anyway, the only "somethings" are planets, stars, random meteors/comets/asteroids, gases, dust clouds, but otherwise there is nothing.

Even with those somethings, on the atomic scale, atoms are 99.9% empty space.

Let me try to make this simple:Universe is mostly nothing or empty space, if the universe were "nothing" beyond a certain "barrier", then it wouldn't be much different than it is now.

agreed.
The fact that Space is infinite bring up another interesting question. Do people really think we were the only intelligent planet in an infinite space?

[FallenXxRaven]

Ahh. I was waiting for that question to come up. Earth and the way we evolved is just an anomoly in the universe right? What I mean is that on this planet everything was swirling around and whatnot just right for the first lifeform to come to be. Well if you look at the infinity of the universe we are just a tiny insigficant speck. Just to give you an idea of what i mean, just in the Milky Way alone we are a tiny dot on the edge. The Milky Way is just a tiny dot in a cluster of galaxies, and that cluster of galaxies is just a tiny dot in the universe. That should give you an idea of how small this planet really is. But what i mean is its not very smart to NOT think there is no other life in the universe. I'm not even talking about intellegent life, I mean just a microscopic cell somewhere else in the universe, maybe evloving like earth has, or maybe something formed before us and there are super intellegent aliens traving at light speed. All I really mean is that in the infinity of our universe there has to be other life, another solar system where a planet formed just right for life to form, somewhere in this infinity we live in.

[sujishishou]

in in infinite universe,
nothing you say or do has any meaning or purpose.
it is just a set of events that occurred randomly.
its all just random data.
our existance is just meh.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

If a universe is truely infinite, perhaps space is being made or something. I don't know if there is any edge or anything, but if space was somehow infinite, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that there is no other life. Even if right now we are the only life forms, if the universe was infinite, wouldn't that mean that if infinity is the way I see it or could possibly imagine it (a sequence that keeps adding or in the terms of a galaxy, space keeps on being made by a sequence [not neccessarily a sequence that goes in any order] though that would leave the thought of what space has not made yet or what is beyond this space), that would mean that a planet or galaxy at any given time could eventually be made to have life forms.

[Falco_L]

Originally Posted by FallenXxRaven

All I really mean is that in the infinity of our universe there has to be other life, another solar system where a planet formed just right for life to form, somewhere in this infinity we live in.

This is not necessarily true. Yes, I agree that with respect to our insignificance, the universe is essentially infinite. However, it is also possible that the probability of such life appearing anywhere in the universe is vanishingly small, as to be infinitesimal. If the number of instances of life in the universe is proportional to the product of the volume of space and the probability of life appearing per unit volume, the limit as one goes to infinity and the other goes to zero can, in fact, be a finite number, perhaps one. This sort of limit is seen in fields such as relativity; it is why photons can have momentum as massless particles.

I don't disagree with you, I'm just playing Devil's advocate here and pointing out a common misconception.

[Adamaja456]

Originally Posted by Falco_L

This is not necessarily true. Yes, I agree that with respect to our insignificance, the universe is essentially infinite. However, it is also possible that the probability of such life appearing anywhere in the universe is vanishingly small, as to be infinitesimal. If the number of instances of life in the universe is proportional to the product of the volume of space and the probability of life appearing per unit volume, the limit as one goes to infinity and the other goes to zero can, in fact, be a finite number, perhaps one. This sort of limit is seen in fields such as relativity; it is why photons can have momentum as massless particles.

I don't disagree with you, I'm just playing Devil's advocate here and pointing out a common misconception.

I am just a little confused on one part of this.

" If the number of instances of life in the universe is proportional to the product of the volume of space and the probability of life appearing per unit volume, the limit as one goes to infinity and the other goes to zero can, in fact, be a finite number, perhaps one."

I strongly believe that space in infinite. So how can you make the probability using the volume of something that is infinitely big? I dont see how you can say one goes to infinity. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this topic =]

[Hollus]

I believe that there is other life in the universe. The universe is huge, and I think there is a possibility of life on other planets, even in our extremely hostile universe. After all, we've only become to search for extra-solar planets recently because they're very hard to find. (They don't produce or reflect much light, gravity is negligible compared to stars, etc.) There's a lot of possibilities out there, and we shouldn't dismiss the existence of other lifeforms or even intelligent beings so easily.