Averages = Lifebar penalty

[Arch0wl]

Keep averages the same scorewise, but give them a lifebar penalty similar to boos or misses.

Reason: FFR is way too easy to mash.

This would keep scores the way they are, but would at the very least make passes mean something.

[Sorie]

The idea is interesting, but since the game now works with raw scoring, I think the goal is already met in a way? I mean this as "discouraging players to mash".

The other problem is that some tokens would become impossible to unlock doing so e.g: OMGWTFT0k3n.

I would be more tempted to not change averages, but to give a higher penalty to boos. That's not possible either because of the above.

That leaves one thing to think about, is there another way to create a penalty?

[Arch0wl]

which matters more: OMGWTFT0k3n, or a sensible passing system?

I'd say the latter.

if this absolutely must be retained, add in a Pro Pass mode which penalizes averages and penalizes boos harder and have Pro Pass as a distinction we can get along with "FC", "AAA" and so on

[AragakiAyase]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

if this absolutely must be retained, add in a Pro Pass mode which penalizes averages and penalizes boos harder and have Pro Pass as a distinction we can get along with "FC", "AAA" and so on

So basically... Hard Rock from Osu?

[Sorie]

That's an excellent idea worth experimenting. It would finally give back some value to the lifebar which become obsolete on harder songs as you can just mash through everything. The new problem with this is that mashers will just not use the "Pro Pass mode" and play normally? Why would someone want to use the "Pro Pass mode" ? What's the insensitive?

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by Sorie

The new problem with this is that mashers will just not use the "Pro Pass mode" and play normally? Why would someone want to use the "Pro Pass mode" ? What's the insensitive?

I feel like this would become a thing among experienced players -- newbies would not use pro pass, while experienced players would, since this would show you've passed the song in a meaningful way and not just bullshitted your way through it

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by AragakiAyase

So basically... Hard Rock from Osu?

if you want to go there, hard clear from IIDX.

[andy-o24]

Unless there was something you got from pro pass mode, a AAA means the same thing. It would maybe add a new dimension to anti-skill competition, but isn't the goal usually to get all perfects and no averages anyway? Low tier players could use this as bragging rights but it has no real effect for higher tier players.

-o24

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by andy-o24

Low tier players could use this as bragging rights but it has no real effect for higher tier players

yes, that is who it is for. low- and mid-tier players for the most part, and high-tier players on songs rated 90+.

[emulord]

I like it. I feel like FCs lost some meaning from Raw scoring, so having more intermediate goals for songs is a good thing.

[Rapta]

I like the way averages are at the moment.

[PhantomPuppy]

yea now that i think about it, there really isn't much in the game that destroys lifebars. a D2 player can pass death piano if they really felt like it. i like the idea that it maintains the same score given, since that would mess up a lot of things if it didnt give the same score, but at the same time it would make the game more challenging and interesting for casuals and competitive players alike if it gave a lifebar penalty.

[SKG_Scintill]

Get 200+ averages on "Zodiac" to unlock Exotica.

[PhantomPuppy]

@everyone that's talking about unlocking tokens being a problem... just have different requirements? and people that already have the token unlocked don't have to do it again?

edit: not trying to sound like an ass, just a solution to the problems you're stating.

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

I feel like this would become a thing among experienced players -- newbies would not use pro pass, while experienced players would, since this would show you've passed the song in a meaningful way and not just bullshitted your way through it

While having a Pro Pass system would get older more experienced Vets back into playing FFR with a purpose, when you reach that high of skill, you tend to bullshit your way through patterns regardless.

[SK8R43]

Who even mashes still? I mean FC's dont even matter anymore. PA> FC everytime.

[ggsnipes]

I'm thinking about the Pro Pass idea, and it reminds me of the Ultimate Clear system in CROSSxBEATS, its a system that rewards more accurate players, so say a player with 100% rate on level 67 got 67 ranking points (taking the CxB example) a player who did a 97% run with ultimate clear would get 1.2 x 97% x 67 = ranking points towards rank.

So basically, if there was to be a Pro Pass mode, have it count towards skill rating. But have it make sure that normal clears cannot affect it. (so a better normal clear won't change the rating, a better pro pass will change it.)

I can elaborate if need be, since I'm still confused on what I just said.

[Trumpet63]

I don't think that a life bar has any real purpose aside from being transferred over from FFR's source material. Thinking back to DDR, or any arcade-based rhythm game, I imagine that the whole purpose of a life bar is to drain your quarters.

In Guitar Hero, a pass / no pass system is useful because the game lacks useful, in-depth skill measurement (I mean c'mon, they don't even have accuracy).

Maybe I would buy the idea that it's a pretty powerful goal motivation, and it has some social-engineering uses, teaching players what level of accuracy is expected. But I mean, if that is the case, what level of punishment is correct? What even is the current system, does anyone know the specifics of the value of the full lifebar, or how much is given by getting perfects? If we want to improve the system, we ought to look at all of the variables.

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by Trumpet63

I don't think that a life bar has any real purpose aside from being transferred over from FFR's source material. Thinking back to DDR, or any arcade-based rhythm game, I imagine that the whole purpose of a life bar is to drain your quarters.

It is more used as a guideline for players to know within a Rhythm Game engine which songs that certain player can survive, and for how long until stamina might give up. Personally, I like having a life meter to show my abilities on certain charts/patterns and where I need to improve within a specific section of any given song.

On FFR, you could actually replace the life bar entirely with a percent tracker, similar to that of OSU where it goes down with worse accuracy. That would mean not being able to physically fail out of a song, unless a maximum miss rule was upheld, like missing 20-30 notes in a row would fail you out. I wouldn't know the specifics on that myself but food for thought.

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by _Zenith_

when you reach that high of skill, you tend to bullshit your way through patterns regardless.

well, no, not regardless. something in the game is allowing someone to bullshit patterns.

it is difficult (though possible, but not common) to bullshit patterns on beatmania iidx, but it is very possible to bullshit patterns on stepmania judge 4, and even more so on ffr with penalty-free averages.

bullshittability is determined by the game's penalizations, period.