Is it wrong to be gay?

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by NFD

That's uh, not Mormons you're thinking of.

To an extent it is. Also Jehova's Witnesses and Southern Baptists. Faith-based medicine is prevalent in the Southeast and the Southwest even if it isn't fundamentally called for in all cases by the religion or clergy or whatever. All of these groups oppose abortion and stem cell treatment, even for life or death cases like Ectopic pregnancy. Jevova's Witnesses have the blood transfusion thing, which is probably what you're talking about, but religious people of all stripes are commonly hostile to science and medicine, even if it is selectively in most cases.

What the religious don't like about homosexuals is the lack of symmetry between homosexual practices and religious practices, unlike with other groups which would threaten them. Traditionally, christianity has made a target of other religions, hence other belief systems. They've done a very good job of this, as evidenced by the prevalence of the religion. One can successfully attack choices and beliefs, and the christian religion has convincingly done so since its inception. If homosexuality is simply an attribute, on the other hand, that puts current christian attitudes towards homosexuality on the same level as attitudes towards slavery, where slavery was justified by biblical scripture through the interpretation that blacks were "children of ham".

The christian insistence on homosexuality being a choice is due to the fact that the christian framework cannot handle opposing evidence, only opposing beliefs. Therefore, factual states of affairs, intrinsic properties of a certain subset of people, are treated as subjective behavioral choices in order to make opposing evidence dissappear (at least from the mind of the christian). That's what virus003's post was about. Even when this strategy manifests as tolerance or political correctness, it is still an attempt to assert symmetry between the form of christianity and the form of potential evidence against christianity, ie, to assert that both stem from belief or personal practice, and therefore submit at minimum that it is reasonable for the two things to be held on the same level, to compete in some way, as opposed to evidence holding priority over belief and favoring the claims and rights of homosexuals over traditional biblical interpretation.

Except in the case of political correctness it's even more pathetic. On some level I think most christians, even the devout fundamentalists, realize their beliefs are incompatible with reality. The whole "homosexuality is a choice but that's ok" shtick is a self-defense mechanism. In this case the goal is not to malign homosexuality, even though this potential is maintained, but to defend christianity. It is still the christians attempt to convince themselves that they are simply practicing a different set of beliefs than homosexuals, which retains for them the ability to criticize homosexuality according to its failure to meet their own beliefs (even if they abstain from this at the moment). The reality, of course, is that christians are vocally and perpetually attacking a minority condition in the name of maintaining their idiotic belief system against all potential impositions by reality.

[blade_anime]

I'm christian myself, and you know what I hate? When other christians run adds saying that homosexuals want us all to be like them (and these ads do exist) it always pisses me off. It puts the community as a whole in a bad light. Me? I am perfectly fine with people being homosexual (but I'd admittedly be a bit creeped out if a guy started hitting on me.) And as for gay marriage? Although I have very small reservations about it being called "Marriage," I have absolutely no problem with the concept whatsoever, and it annoys me when people not only target it, but when they use it to take attention away from bigger issues. Also, Kilroy, the church opposing science is actually rather recent. Historically, a fair amount of scientific research came from the church.

[Yieldsign]

Originally Posted by blade_anime

I'm christian myself, and you know what I hate? When other christians run adds saying that homosexuals want us all to be like them (and these ads do exist) it always pisses me off. It puts the community as a whole in a bad light. Me? I am perfectly fine with people being homosexual (but I'd admittedly be a bit creeped out if a guy started hitting on me.) And as for gay marriage? Although I have very small reservations about it being called "Marriage," I have absolutely no problem with the concept whatsoever, and it annoys me when people not only target it, but when they use it to take attention away from bigger issues. Also, Kilroy, the church opposing science is actually rather recent. Historically, a fair amount of scientific research came from the church.

Historically, the church also persecuted scientists on the basis of heresy; see Galileo, Copernicus, etc.

[Kilroy_x]

I'm not sure Natural Philosophy is comparable to modern science, especially when you compare the achievements of the two disciplines. Most science done in the days of the church simply involved reading and mimicking Aristotle, which would have been fine if it had worked as a start to things rather than being taken as the end of knowledge.

[NFD]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

To an extent it is.

Uh, no. This is not up for debate. You're wrong.

[Swoop]

Being gay is just a personal preference I think, although I have read that your sexual orientation is decided in the womb by genes and such. There is nothing wrong with it I think. I will say that I do not like the gay's that make it obvouis to every one by means of flaunting. If your gay keep it to yourself in public try not to flaunt it too much

[dore]

Originally Posted by Swoop

I will say that I do not like the gay's that make it obvouis to every one by means of flaunting. If your gay keep it to yourself in public try not to flaunt it too much

I used to agree with this statement a long time ago, since I grew up in a very conservative area and this was the prevalent "moderate" view of homosexuality, and so I accepted it without really thinking about it too much. But after actually considering my position on this, I changed my mind, for a simple reason:

"I will say that I do not like the straight people that make it obvouis to every one by means of flaunting. If your straight keep it to yourself in public try not to flaunt it too much"

Now nobody in polite company is going to particularly "flaunt" their straightness ("YEAAAH LET'S HAVE SOME SEX WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX WOOOOOO"), but still, there's nothing wrong with people from a community openly showing the world that they are a part of that community, whether consciously or not. Just because everyone knows the stereotypical gay guy and many people relate the entire concept of homosexuality to that stereotype, doesn't mean it's wrong or anything to share characteristics with that stereotype and then "flaunt" it. That's that person's own prerogative, and it shouldn't make anyone uncomfortable.

[AsphyxZero]

Originally Posted by NFD

Asexuality is stupid.

No it's not, it's pretty cool because you don't have to worry about everyone saying "oh being gay is wrong oh no it's right oh no it's inherited from straight parents and gay foster parents."

I can sit back and relax with my lack of sex drive. B)

[trillobyite]

First, no. I didnt read the 450 pages of thread so forgive me, but over the course of my life I've failed to hear one argument against being gay that was rooted in logic.

Second, as far as why a person would be gay, I think it's a mix (as are most traits) of genes and environment. It's not that there's a "gay gene," but certain genetic patterns make one more likely to be gay than others. Then the environment has an effect, just as it has an effect on the development of personality. People with more disposition to be gay will be gay in one environment whereas people with less disposition wont be. Maybe in some other environment those people will be gay. Some people simply aren't gay and the environmental effect is not substantial (and same for people who simply are gay).

Either way, it's not a conscious choice and can't be controlled. If you're attracted to the same sex you're not evil. Hell, even if you're attracted to children you're not evil, but then you have to work hard to stop your impulses because your desires are unreciprocated. Those desires are reciprocated, however, when it comes to homosexuals dealing with other homosexuals. And so there's nothing wrong with that.

[ScylaX]

It's our socio-cultural influence that makes us having a manichean judgement on sexuality. It isn't right nor wrong to be homosexual : in today's society, the only problem with homosexuality are homophobic people and how marginal it's considered by a large community of people. And that's why religions needs to adapt to their era and get a little modernized. Traditionnalism is just living in the past when you're enduring the present, aka don't facing the reality.

The only problem most of people have with it is because you get in a relation knowing you couldn't get a child from only that relation. Their conclusion is : because it doesn't accord to some normality scheme, it's an exception that must die forever. But hey, we live in an human society with complex feelings and psychology, one of our main purpose on living today is to be happy.

If it's about that "natural scheme" or whatever, I still don't see the problem. It has already been stated that no community would demographically sink because of homosexuality. I don't see why anybody should be obliged to contribute by giving birth to a children or two. If you doom homosexuality, you have to also doom asexuality and people that just don't want any children, from that point, it gets disjointed.

I personnally think any human being can potentially be attired by someone of the same sex. It's just a question of personnal tastes and cultural freedom (I'd redirect you to ancient Greece or ancient Rome if you want an example). I don't see where genetics have to be involved, that kind of point of view seems more like some eugenic opinion than anything to me. Zoophilia is a deviance because you don't copulate with a human being, pedophilia is a deviance, because you will copulate with someone that isn't mentally and physically ready to take it (oh look, rape just looks like to be the same thing)

tl;dr it's not because it doesn't contribute to the society that it has to be an anomaly, especially today. Saying it doesn't apply to some natural scheme is inconsistent, saying it's gross is a complete proof of ignorance/primitiveness.

[blade_anime]

You know something interesting I read about recently? Apparently, it is not uncommon for people who are bisexual to be discriminated against by people who are homosexual, the belief being that the bisexual person is actually homosexual and afraid to admit it. Personally, I find this ridiculous, what about you guys?

[fido123]

Yeah, I don't get that logic at all. Bisexuality seems like the most logical kind of sexuality IMO. Gender by itself, when looking at love completely rationally, shouldn't account for a whole lot. I still consider myself mostly gay but I currently have a girlfriend cause I just happened to like her a lot.

Also saying asexuality is stupid is ****ing retarded. Different people have different interests and I think some people are introverted enough so they don't have to rely on somebody for happiness.

Also I agree with the flaunting thing but it goes for both sides. Regardless of the the orientation of the couple, public affection to an extreme extend isn't accepted in society, although I disagree with that.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by blade_anime

You know something interesting I read about recently? Apparently, it is not uncommon for people who are bisexual to be discriminated against by people who are homosexual, the belief being that the bisexual person is actually homosexual and afraid to admit it. Personally, I find this ridiculous, what about you guys?

Gays & Lesbians -> Bisexuals; "you're closeted gays and lesbians, you're heartbreaking sexually unfaithful community destroyers who want to play with us while enjoying heteronormative privilege, you don't understand what it means to be truly queer"

Lesbians -> Transgender people; "You're setting back women's rights by perpetuating rigid gender roles, you're not actually men/women, MtF's are a crude and degrading caricature of women and FtM's are traitors to feminism"

Gays -> Transgender people; "You're confused homosexuals, your extreme behavior makes the rest of us look bad and makes it harder to win social acceptance, you're mutilating your bodies to try and win societies acceptance and escape the stigma of homosexuality"

Transgender people; "..."

Shit rolls downhill. GLBT(QQIA...etc) is a myth. When I go to a pride event I don't feel accepted or at ease, I feel like lining people up against a wall.

[Rubin0]

I know a few males that initially came out as bisexual to only come out as gay later. Every bisexual woman I have known have usually used women for sex or sexual play until they find their next boyfriend. I personally know of no bisexual females that have chosen another woman as a life partner.

[Chrissi]

As a bisexual woman, I can say that it's because it's just easier to pick up a guy than a girl. I'm bisexual but I've never been with a woman simply because the dating pool is much, much smaller, and I don't even know where I'd look to date women (maybe a gay club? I don't go to clubs. Maybe pride? Would feel creepy to try to pick up chicks at pride, though maybe it's the perfect place...)

Anyway I'm in a long-term relationship right now with a guy that I love so I don't even know if I'll ever be with a woman.

[Rubin0]

The biggest problem for bisexual women is that lesbians simply won't date them and other bisexual women are dating men.

[kommisar]

Originally Posted by blade_anime

I'm christian myself, and you know what I hate? When other christians run adds saying that homosexuals want us all to be like them (and these ads do exist) it always pisses me off. It puts the community as a whole in a bad light. Me? I am perfectly fine with people being homosexual (but I'd admittedly be a bit creeped out if a guy started hitting on me.) And as for gay marriage? Although I have very small reservations about it being called "Marriage," I have absolutely no problem with the concept whatsoever, and it annoys me when people not only target it, but when they use it to take attention away from bigger issues. Also, Kilroy, the church opposing science is actually rather recent. Historically, a fair amount of scientific research came from the church.

These are the kinds of christians I can actually legitimately respect.


Homosexuality is now like racism was in the 70's. It's all past now. Let's move on it's part of life deal w/it etc. Put yourself in their minority shoes. It really sucks when everyone's judging you. Liking girls? It's fucen wrong. No matter how right it feels for you, everyone else is out to get you because of it. Wouldn't that suck?

[D!LL]

I guess I'm blessed. I grew up in an area where no one really denounced me for my sexual orientation. I really don't understand the point of homophobia or hatred towards gays. It doesn't make any sense at all and it is a testament to how ignorant people truly can be.

[Kage06]

The funny thing is, whenever I play at the arcade on DDR or any dance machine for that matter, I'm automatically seen as being gay by people. Especially if they note how good I am compared to the average.
It annoys me to be honest. Especially seeing as I'm not.

Playing on dance machines is not the way to pick up girls

Just thought that would be appropriate. It's the way people are brought up to see things. Guys aren't meant to be seen dancing apparently.

[Koolmaster242]

I'm bi and all of my friends just turned around when I told them I was that I will just become gay and it's pointless, but I like girls more, and I have dated only girls, but find some men cute and some are great people, yes I've had a crush on a guy before, and everyone I knew frowned apon it which I never understood why.
Parents: Shouldn't you just care that your son is happy and he finds people who enjoy him in his life?
Friends: If they are true, they would understand that I chose to be bi, and it wasn't a 'trait' or a 'gene' or it wasn't a choice, I chose to be bi because certain men make me happy
A girl came up to me one day and said: "It's not right to be gay or bi: You are put on earth to have sex with a girl, and have a kid, you cannot have a kid with a man and live life on, so just be straight and make babies" I find this stupid because, yes, I was put on earth to mate, but I can chose to be married to a man and adopt a kid that could have been mistreated and treat him as my own, just because she disliked me being bi doesn't mean that I can't live as happy as a straight guy, who knows
I might turn gay
Or I might be straight
Either way, I'm human, I'm as normal as a straight person is
And people should get over their immature self