What's a poor guy to do?

[Moogy]

afro, the pms retards don't count and you know it

[Laharl]

Originally Posted by Grandiagod

Listen, this isn't a CT topic. This is a way for you to whine.

Stop pretending your'e so persecuted and just start acting like less of a idiot.

So because it directly applies to my life, the entire topic somehow is no longer valid? What's the point of critical thinking if we can't apply it to our lives?

Then you just sound like coberst, talking about things which don't really matter and presenting information as if it was important.

[Grandiagod]

Originally Posted by Laharl

So because it directly applies to my life, the entire topic somehow is no longer valid? What's the point of critical thinking if we can't apply it to our lives?

The point is you do not intend to apply it to yourself. You just want to say "HAY GUYS, LOOK I'M BEING PERSECUTED." If you really wanted a straigt anwser you wouldn't ask the people who were making fun of you.

[studmuffin51306]

Im sorry if I'm going off topic, but I thought I should return to what was originally said.

I tend to be a doormat for others. In my situation, I would do nothing, accept the punishment, and hope that my lack of actions or argument would haunt their conscience at night. What more could you do?

[Cavernio]

hehe, nice avatar emphasis laharl. Also, I agree with pretty much what's already been said. Suck it up. The best solution is to not let it bother you. Don't take things so seriously. I'm sure that's not what you want to hear though. If you want to stay, the best thing to do is ignore the past and ignore people/posts that piss you off. Arguing and bashing have 2 sides. If you ignore it, people will eventually stop.

kilga: One voice is never completely powerless, and if the impression the internet's given is that it makes everyone's voice powerless (do they magically have more power offline? Where there's less people to hear them?) then that's your own, tragic loss. Also, its sad that you think people do things only because they have legal or moral obligations to. Actually, I think listening to people IS a moral obligation you should have. And why do you ever say ANYTHING, from jokes to sports to work, if you don't want to get a point across?


ckj846: Wow, geez...I...don't even know where to begin with your post. Firstly, I disagree 100% that it isn't up to society to try and fix these problems. It's one of these things that society should/has forever been trying to improve. Your blanket statement means things like we shouldn't try and stop racism because 'that's life'. Yeah, that is life. Doesn't mean it can't be made better. Secondly, your next point, about going to see a psychologist about issues is contradictory to your first statement. Society has made the position of psychologist EXACTLY to deal with situations to make people happy. Whether you do it, or someone else does it, they're both part of society. Also, going to see a psychologist when you know exactly what the problem is and that if only something beyond your control were to stop, I don't think is adequate to see a psychologist over. Wow, Laharl is exhibiting signs that he wants attention. Damn right he wants attention. Wouldn't you want attention to the fact that people have treated you like ****? What on earth is so abnormal and problematic about that, that someone should go see a psychologist? You're also ignoring that this post was intended for a way to find a solution. Yeah, you're right, the only people qualified to give solutions to problems are psychologists. Gotta have that PhD to understand a person.
You say you're not bitching to us about your problems and that's a good thing. Are you saying you WANT to talk about them? I'm really not sure why not talking about your issues with someone is supposed to be beneficial. Oh that's right. You don't think that anyone else should have to listen to your problems. Well, if you don't want to be social, that's your own loss. And if you expect others to treat you the same, then you deserve the loneliness and the wall of pretenses you've probably put up. Plus, (huge thing here), I don't think your issues aren't stemming from your regular discourse on this site; Laharl's are. Your advice is that Laharl should go see a psychologist instead of confronting the people/forum that're causing the issue. That's some of the worst advice I've ever heard.

[Kilgamayan]

Originally Posted by Cavernio

kilga: One voice is never completely powerless

Unless it's on staff, if it opposes the voices of many others on an equal plane, then yes, it is.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

(do they magically have more power offline? Where there's less people to hear them?)

Yes, because physical actions can be taken. Try staging a march or a sit-in on the Internet and see how far it gets you.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

and if the impression the internet's given is that it makes everyone's voice powerless then that's your own, tragic loss.

You can't possibly be ignorant enough to think the opinions of a minority will outweigh the opinions of a majority when everyone involved is put on an equal level (which they are on the Internet unless one or more people involved are staff of the site).

Originally Posted by Cavernio

Also, its sad that you think people do things only because they have legal or moral obligations to.

Why else would they, unless it's something just for kicks?

Originally Posted by Cavernio

Actually, I think listening to people IS a moral obligation you should have.

That's nice. It's also merely an opinion (one I do not happen to share, at least not in all circumstances), and thus not any sort of evidence to back your claim.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

And why do you ever say ANYTHING, from jokes to sports to work, if you don't want to get a point across?

In terms of what I do on the Internet? I do it because I get a kick out of it, and I'm fairly sure there are plenty of others who do as well.

[Cavernio]

Getting a kick out of something would involve someone listening to you.

I'm not saying that minority voices outweigh majority voices. I'm saying that you've got a voice, and by thinking that that voice has no weight makes it that much less likely to carry any. Throwing away ideals because they can never fully work is terrible.

I thought we were talking about voices, opinions, not physical actions.

[Kilgamayan]

We are.

I thought you would be smart enough that I wouldn't have to do this, but I guess I have to spell it out for you. Let's say a group of people on this website have voiced their opinions on some issue, with a clear majority and minority. Synth comes wandering along and happens to see it. One of three things will happen:

- Synth will have his own predetermined opinion on the issue and take action in accordance with that, because it's his website and he can do with it as he pleases. In this instance, everyone's voice is meaningless, and therefore powerless.
- Everything else is sufficiently the same that Synth doesn't have an opinion on the subject. In this case, he goes with the majority in the instance of maximizing public happiness, thereby making the opinions of the minority meaningless and their voices powerless.
- Synth doesn't care about the issue enough to make any sort of decision and leaves it to rot, rendering everyone's opinions meaningless and therefore their voices powerless.

In the best case scenario, your opinion counts only if you're a part of the majority, and this happens only once. If you're ever in the minority, you're sunk.

[Cavernio]

So I guess things like minority rights have just always been there, that it wasn't because minorities made an issue about them and managed to 'win'.

I must say, I've gotta disagree with your 3 scenarios too. Firstly, you're putting Synth like a God in this place. Just because he runs it and is all-powerful, doesn't mean that he a) can't have his opinion about an issue changed by what someone else thinks, whether that person is in the minority or majority or b) that if he doesn't care, that makes it a failed topic or something. You're saying opinion only has power when it manages to reach THE power, in this case, Synth. But you only get this by thinking that an individual person is powerless to begin with. If you thought that managing to convince just anyone about something is power, then we wouldn't be disagreeing with each other. The only time that Synth has ANY bearing on issues like this is if he decides to use his authority. Synth isn't constantly patrolling forums and smiting evil. It seems like he's largely leaving the people on them to bicker as they see fit, thereby passing the power over to us.
Also, your earlier statement that you don't have to listen to someone if you don't want to, also reinforces your idea. If you don't listen to people, then there's no way the people you don't listen to will have any sort of power. Not listening takes away any power someone can have.

[Specforces]

Synth is god.

[edubardus]

Originally Posted by Specforces

Synth is god.

Agreed.

[spyke252]

Originally Posted by emptiness

Ever thought about going on another forum where your opinions are held in high regard?

Hm. So if you want to play a sport (Let us define the sport as football) and you aren't one of the best players out there, rather than try to better yourself at it, you should go back to playing video games. Or, rather than debating a higher-level thinking novel that has more than one idea, you should just go back to reading Dr. Seuss. Does this make sense?

Now, I know that this post may incite others to dislike me, I believe that the topic creator made a correct decision. Though the statement could have been made in better ways (it could be in the correct forum, it could be not worded hypothetically if it is a real situation, etc), it alerts the public to know something is not right. Whether this something is with the moderators or admin, with the message system, or with people just are not showing respect to other people ("Oh, I have been here longer than you, so I am better than you" is not a valid statement- it's elitist; as long as the newer people follow the regulations and contribute to the society, they should be treated at least with the respect that their effort into their posts deserve), it is important to know.

The topic creator's message may have spurred the moderators to listen to his opinion. Looking back, GrandiaGod seems to flame unprovocatively, and has since been banned. I do not know if there has been a grudge between them for a while; if there had, I may react differently. And though I may be new here myself, I have read the stickies (Please avoid stereotyping me; it would not be appreciated) and I hope I do not come across as attacking any veteran members.

On topic, I believe the best thing to do at a time like that would be to ask for help from the general public. As I read into the situation, the person having the troubles seems to be past the point of ignoring the provokers, yet reducing himself or herself to their level by using their tactics against them should not be their next choice. As the Moderators of this hypothetical situation have not shown any action to the provokers (Though this is unclear. Did they reply saying that they will do nothing? Did they not reply at all? How many attempts were there to converse with them? What punishments they gave may have been in secret, as most leaders give.), there are only two politically and morally correct choices that come to mind- either ask other people, or leave the society permanently.

[Laharl]

^I like this guy. I hope he sticks around awhile.

As for the "ever thought about going somewhere new?", I'm a rather active member of quite a few message boards, and most of them are a lot more mature than here. As I've said, I still like FFR's community although not because of the majority, but minority of people in it that stand out. Some of my very best and closest internet friends, I have made through this site. I don't want to give up just because there are a lot of close-minded people who don't like my particular brand of self-awareness or whatever you want to call it that I am that they disagree with.

[Anticrombie0909]

Respect is earned, not freely given.

Maybe you should solve your own problems instead of running to the authorities to solve them for you.

[spyke252]

Originally Posted by Anticrombie0909

Respect is earned, not freely given.

Alright, so I shall return to my football example.

Consider Mark. Mark is a High School freshman, just deciding what sports he wishes to partake in, what clubs he wishes to join, what classes he wishes to take. He decides to take (classwise) Computer Science, (sportwise) Football, and join the Debate team.

He excels in his Computer Science class, through nothing other than his aptitude in the subject. So much so, in fact, that his teacher moves him from Computer Science 1, to Computer Science 2. The people in his previous class envy him for his talents, the people in his new class respect him for his level of work. This is even though he just became a member of the class; they realize his promotion meant he knew what he was doing. However, he now actually had to work, and was struggling slightly to catch up. The others in his class helped him by critiquing his work, not yelling at his mistakes.

Being a quarterback in Football, however, he wasn't nearly as good. His teammates always yelled at him for screwing up, he couldn't even talk to the varsity players because "He was a freshman" and "He couldn't do anything right". He worked on his throwing and passing some, but his enthusiasm was stifled through his teammate's attitude toward him. He quit before the end of his first season.

In Debate, he was a powerhouse. He could argue that one equals two, and have enough evidence through math, enough knowledge of basic physics, even some history. But, one of those people who step on everyone else to get ahead kept stealing his over-the-week assignments, and got all of the credit. Since he was thought to be cheating off the other person, he was disrespected by everyone on the team. At first, he thought the person would get bored, and forget about him. However, his notes still kept being stolen. He tried to keep two sets of notes, a fake one and a real one, but somehow, he always "lost" his real set. Three months into the club, he decided to tell the sponsor. The sponsor did not believe him. And so he left.

Three months later, he finished 9th grade. The seniors in varsity football graduated, but he really didn't care about football anymore. Nor did the ignorant teammates really care for their needing a quarterback, he felt. His Debate notes Thief confessed after realizing he did not have the skills necessary to make as great a debate as Mark. And, all of the people on the team tried to ask him back, but he didn't want to return to the team anymore. What good would he do for them? They worked just fine without him.

But in Computer Science, he held fast. He blazed through, and he not only earned straight A's, he completed half of Computer Science 3 in the school year. He went on to get 5's on the two AP tests for Computer Science, became the Computer Team Leader and won several competitions at a local college, and became MSE (Microsoft Systems Engineer) certified before finishing his Senior year at High School.

Now, which groups did he benefit from? Which groups benefited from him?

The group that helped him out, also got the most out of him. The groups that yelled at him, got nothing from him. Ignoring his obvious potential for debate, the Debate team lost its possibly most prominent member. The football team never knew what they had lost, but their quarterback on varsity now is a sophomore, and is about as good a player as Mark was. But the Computer Science class helping him out, definately enjoyed his leadership when he reached their level, and beyond.

Something to think about. Giving a little respect can help one to grow, and learn, making them a better person in society as a whole, which also gives you a reason to respect them.

[Laharl]

Originally Posted by Anticrombie0909

Respect is earned, not freely given.

Maybe you should solve your own problems instead of running to the authorities to solve them for you.

My problems stem from people breaking the rules of the forums in order to harass me. The authorities looked the other way initially, and so I did take things into my own hands by playing the trolling game right back at them, which oddly enough got me banned rather than the people who initially perpetuated the trolling.

So I learned from that mistake. If it wasn't for the fact I am friends with a few of the mods via instant messengers, I would have been banned until April of next year for something that should have been a week-long ban (which is what it got changed to, thankfully.) This post is not intended as a "WOE IS ME, MEIN LIEBEN IST KAPUT." I honestly want to know what it is I need to go do to fit in, at least enough so that I'm not attacked for no other reason that I'm me. Which brings me back to what Grandiagod said earlier, about asking the people who don't like me this question? They're the ones that are my foils, and the ones I need to stop being so hateful towards me. If I was already getting along with everyone, a post like this wouldn't be needed.

I actually would have been content to leave this as a hypothetical situation, and would have preferred it, but it seems a lot of you guys are keen and intent to drag my own personal stupid dramas back into the spotlight.

@ Spyke: I would argue that the debate team benefitted from his presense, although unknowingly. A weak member of the team made himself strong by presenting someone else's works, yes, but it was still a weak team member making himself strong. Were he not there for the other person to steal his work, they'd have been down a solid arguement every time another school was debated. I would think that he still wouldn't return to that debate team because he felt abused and unappreciated despite the team's desire to make it right (if indeed their reason for asking him back was because they wanted to make amends and not to increase the ability of their team.)

[Anticrombie0909]

@spyke: what

EDIT: Ok curiosity got the better of me and I actually went back and read your long winded diatribe.

What's your fucking point?

All I got out of your stupid story was that Mark got respect in the class he was good in, and a stupid douche got him kicked out of Debate, and he didn't get respect in the area he sucked at.

You proved my point. Respect is earned, not given. He earned his respect in his Comp Sci class by being good at computer science, and didn't get respect from the foot ball team because he sucked at football. Your debate scenario is a bit of a red herring and doesn't really pertain to this situation at all.

[Kilgamayan]

Originally Posted by Cavernio

So I guess things like minority rights have just always been there, that it wasn't because minorities made an issue about them and managed to 'win'.

Jesus, do I need to spell everything out for you?

Because minorities could get up and do something. They could refuse to give up their bus seat. They could perform sit-ins. They could march on Washington. How are you going to do anything as meaningful as those things on a message board? Please provide specific examples of things a user can do to force a change of attitude on other users.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

I must say, I've gotta disagree with your 3 scenarios too. Firstly, you're putting Synth like a God in this place. Just because he runs it and is all-powerful

Sounds like a God to me.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

doesn't mean that he a) can't have his opinion about an issue changed by what someone else thinks, whether that person is in the minority or majority

This will only arise if someone presents factual information pertinent to the issue that Synth had been unable to consider previously. Otherwise, why would he listen to someone else telling him how to run his site?

Originally Posted by Cavernio

or b) that if he doesn't care, that makes it a failed topic or something.

I have no idea what you mean by "failed topic" because we're discussing inter-user issues rather than CT-style discussions.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

You're saying opinion only has power when it manages to reach THE power, in this case, Synth. But you only get this by thinking that an individual person is powerless to begin with.

Take the topic post in particular. What can Laharl do about people harassing him without site staff backup?

Originally Posted by Cavernio

The only time that Synth has ANY bearing on issues like this is if he decides to use his authority. Synth isn't constantly patrolling forums and smiting evil. It seems like he's largely leaving the people on them to bicker as they see fit, thereby passing the power over to us.

Which ends up being my "Synth doesn't care" case, where the majority rules.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

Also, your earlier statement that you don't have to listen to someone if you don't want to, also reinforces your idea. If you don't listen to people, then there's no way the people you don't listen to will have any sort of power. Not listening takes away any power someone can have.

Well, hey, thanks for supporting my argument.

I don't require anyone on this site listen to me, so I don't see why I should be required to listen to anyone else (at least among the populace that is not above me). People are welcome to listen to me if they so choose, and I listen to other people if I so choose.

[spyke252]

Originally Posted by Anticrombie0909

@spyke: what

What's your point?

Each scenario represents a society.

The football scenario resembles the society that does not give new people a chance. From the very beginning, the varsity members despised him. They ended up losing a member who would really help them, and they dont even realize it.

The Comp Sci scenario represents the society that realizes how everyone has potential. Though he did well in Comp Sci 1, he is having trouble keeping up in Comp Sci 2. With others' help, he learns, and then he helps them.

The Debate scenario represents the society that assumes. They assume that Mark is the one cheating (which shows they are elitist as well; the other is not cheating because he has been there longer) and don't even try to get the full story. Even the government (here, the sponsor) ignores his plea for help, and they, once again, lose a member who could really help them out.

Does this explain what I have said?

In short, if you show respect to someone, then that someone will earn respect by his lonesome. But if you only give respect after someone earns it, then you shut out many people who, after time, may become contributing members of society.

[studmuffin51306]

SHUT UP.

Y'all have ruined this forum.