Ranking Suggestion

StringsnKeys · 11-17-2008, 12:59 PM

My suggestion for a new ranking system - players are ranked in descending order according to their average rank. The problem with the current, "overall rank", is that essentially, someone could have played 150,000 games and have overall rank 1, but an average rank of 1,000. This situation implies that there are lots of better players out there, who just haven't played as many games. The problem with average rank at the moment is that several people can have the same average rank. This isn't really a problem except that if two people have the same average rank, who's to say who is better? The person with the higher overall rank? Wouldn't it make more sense that the person who has a better average rank in less games is better? I dunno, the point it is, I think it would be great to have a system where players are ranked in descending order according to their average rank. This way, the player with the best average rank has rank 1, the player with second best average rank has rank 2.........and so on. This also deals with the problem that a player with average, or overall rank "n" is not necessarily the "nth" best player in the game. Is there any reason a system like this couldn't be implemented?

rzr · 11-17-2008, 01:05 PM

If you subscribe you can see their rank down to... 3 or 4 decimal places. So, you can still see who's better.

**Tasselfoot** · 11-17-2008, 01:06 PM

it is... it's a subscriber only feature to view the top average rank list.

it's server intensive to pull the data for hundreds of thousands of average ranks. so to make it public would be not so good. as such, it's subbie only.

edit: subbies can view the top1000 ranked by average rank.

StringsnKeys · 11-17-2008, 01:13 PM

So would it be fair to assume if in the future, the community could whip together some more server power, this would be considered for public players as well?

rzr · 11-17-2008, 01:15 PM

The way things are going we'll be lucky to keep the server power we have now.

**devonin** · 11-17-2008, 01:18 PM

I'd also suggest that below a certain range, average rank changes so much per song play that displaying the ranking would be pretty much meaningless anyway.

I mean, in the top1000 ranking sorted by average rank, I'm 771st

By your standards, I'm the 771st best player on the site, and yet I have only 31 AAAs, 221 FCs, an average rank of 2,283, and regularly fail out of division 2 of the official FFR tourney.

Fundamentally, only the top 1000 or so even matter in terms of really ranking your skill compared to other people of a similar skill. There's so much movement at the bottom end, like GTS, that it's not even worth measuring, not the least because it is even -more- server intensive to track motions down that far.

Dave&Wave · 11-19-2008, 07:46 PM

What if someone AAAed blue rose over and over again . Essentially , I'd call him the best , but because he only does 1 song he still has an average rank of 46,000 , so essentially , average rank isn't allways the way to judge a persons skill .

**Breakdown16** · 11-19-2008, 07:48 PM

Average rank is still a much more accurate way of ranking people than overall rank. Average rank measures:

1) your ability, and
2) your dedication to the game.

**dore** · 11-19-2008, 08:37 PM

According to average rank I'm still a top 1000 player which is strange since I haven't played a good 200 songs.

**DarkZtar** · 11-19-2008, 09:40 PM

Some people are too lazy to play all the songs. (me included)

**Kairon** · 11-19-2008, 09:53 PM

Now see, I think there should be some sort of "master rank" system that combines and compiles overall rank, average rank, tier point rank, token rank, token/skill token count, and any other ranks one might think of into one number which encompasses every facet of your FFR skill and dedication. Then we take, say the top 100 or 1000 numbers, line 'em up, see who's is biggest, and make a t-shirt out of it.

**Gibson63** · 11-19-2008, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kairon

Now see, I think there should be some sort of "master rank" system that combines and compiles overall rank, average rank, tier point rank, token rank, token/skill token count, and any other ranks one might think of into one number which encompasses every facet of your FFR skill and dedication. Then we take, say the top 100 or 1000 numbers, line 'em up, see who's is biggest, and make a t-shirt out of it.

+8

**igotrhythm** · 11-19-2008, 09:59 PM

I sincerely hope you're kidding, Eli. That would take so much freaking server load...not to mention that there probably won't be any more Top XXXX items because of the huge cost of making them vs. the amount the people on it (and only the people on it, most likely) would pay to get it.

What you're proposing sounds about as complex as the BCS ranking system, for God's sake. >_<

**Tasselfoot** · 11-19-2008, 10:04 PM

kairon: you're far from the first to suggest it. the problem is... how do you accurately come up with a formula for measuring/ranking? i guess there could be some sort of sabermetric approach that could be applied, but my statistics knowledge is not that good. if anyone is a statistics whiz and wants to try to come up with an algorithm that makes logical sense, be my guest.

**Kairon** · 11-20-2008, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tasselfoot

kairon: you're far from the first to suggest it. the problem is... how do you accurately come up with a formula for measuring/ranking? i guess there could be some sort of sabermetric approach that could be applied, but my statistics knowledge is not that good. if anyone is a statistics whiz and wants to try to come up with an algorithm that makes logical sense, be my guest.

Okay, I'm fleshing out a basic idea, and will probably create a thread about it later.

**Tasselfoot** · 11-20-2008, 02:11 AM

be warned that i'm going to be a harsh critic of any potential algorithm.

Dave&Wave · 11-20-2008, 07:04 AM

Well , the algorithim would use the average rank , but it should have something to do with how many songs you've done . This doesn't take an algorithim wiz , but just a smart person . It will use the average rank and the tier points , and propably the amount of songs you have done . Maybe if it subtracts the positive tier points from the average rank . Or ... I'm not sure . But that's just to get started .

StringsnKeys · 11-20-2008, 08:36 AM

To Dave and Wave, a new account with no songs played has an average rank of close to 40,000 having an average rank of 40,000 because you triple AAAd one song, isn't going to put you too far ahead of everybody.

To Dore, I fail to see how -
FFR Overall Rank: 404
FFR Average Rank: 3,278
makes you a top 1000 player based on my previous suggestion? (I could be wrong though)

In any case, I get it......dragging down statistics for close to 1.6 million players and better yet, doing a bunch of calculations with them, will take a lot of server power. I suppose the goal is to play the game and enjoy yourself which won't be fun if everything starts lagging. For the sake of the argument though, I will start working on some algorithm for a "master ranking" system.

**dore** · 11-20-2008, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StringsnKeys

To Dore, I fail to see how -
FFR Overall Rank: 404
FFR Average Rank: 3,278
makes you a top 1000 player based on my previous suggestion? (I could be wrong though)

I'm 983rd in average rank

StringsnKeys · 11-20-2008, 09:16 AM

Fair enough but as "strange" as you think that may be, you're sitting in that spot for a reason and it's probably not because you're bad...........I don't see why with 293 AAAs, you don't deserve that spot. I'm around 590 (rank) but even though I've played virtually every song, I only have 61 AAAs. I'm sure once you've played every song you will soar past me and lots of other people in rank. I don't think the concept is that difficult to deal with. Those who play more songs, will have a better rank.

11-17-2008, 12:59 PM	#1
StringsnKeys FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 87	Ranking Suggestion My suggestion for a new ranking system - players are ranked in descending order according to their average rank. The problem with the current, "overall rank", is that essentially, someone could have played 150,000 games and have overall rank 1, but an average rank of 1,000. This situation implies that there are lots of better players out there, who just haven't played as many games. The problem with average rank at the moment is that several people can have the same average rank. This isn't really a problem except that if two people have the same average rank, who's to say who is better? The person with the higher overall rank? Wouldn't it make more sense that the person who has a better average rank in less games is better? I dunno, the point it is, I think it would be great to have a system where players are ranked in descending order according to their average rank. This way, the player with the best average rank has rank 1, the player with second best average rank has rank 2.........and so on. This also deals with the problem that *a player with average, or overall rank "n" is not necessarily the "nth" best player in the game.* Is there any reason a system like this couldn't be implemented?

11-17-2008, 01:06 PM	#3
Tasselfoot Retired BOSS Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Widget Heaven Age: 40 Posts: 25,184	Re: Ranking Suggestion it is... it's a subscriber only feature to view the top average rank list. it's server intensive to pull the data for hundreds of thousands of average ranks. so to make it public would be not so good. as such, it's subbie only. edit: subbies can view the top1000 ranked by average rank. __________________ RIP

11-17-2008, 01:13 PM	#4
StringsnKeys FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 87	Re: Ranking Suggestion So would it be fair to assume if in the future, the community could whip together some more server power, this would be considered for public players as well?

11-17-2008, 01:18 PM	#6
devonin Very Grave Indeed Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ontario, Canada Age: 40 Posts: 10,098	Re: Ranking Suggestion I'd also suggest that below a certain range, average rank changes so much per song play that displaying the ranking would be pretty much meaningless anyway. I mean, in the top1000 ranking sorted by average rank, I'm 771st By your standards, I'm the 771st best player on the site, and yet I have only 31 AAAs, 221 FCs, an average rank of 2,283, and regularly fail out of division 2 of the official FFR tourney. Fundamentally, only the top 1000 or so even matter in terms of really ranking your skill compared to other people of a similar skill. There's so much movement at the bottom end, like GTS, that it's not even worth measuring, not the least because it is even -more- server intensive to track motions down that far.

11-19-2008, 07:46 PM	#7
Dave&Wave FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 107	Re: Ranking Suggestion What if someone AAAed blue rose over and over again . Essentially , I'd call him the best , but because he only does 1 song he still has an average rank of 46,000 , so essentially , average rank isn't allways the way to judge a persons skill . __________________ The ways of the One-Hander ~ Three-Fingered ~ Courageous ~ Legendary ~ Strong ~ Proud ~ Few ~ I am One-Hander .

11-19-2008, 07:48 PM	#8
Breakdown16 FFR Veteran Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,938	Re: Ranking Suggestion Average rank is still a much more accurate way of ranking people than overall rank. Average rank measures: 1) your ability, and 2) your dedication to the game. __________________ Made by arrekusuof93 at Ye Olde Photoshop Shoppe Who remembers this thread? Brings back great memories XD

11-19-2008, 08:37 PM	#9
dore caveman pornstar Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: ridin on a unicorn Age: 33 Posts: 6,317	Re: Ranking Suggestion According to average rank I'm still a top 1000 player which is strange since I haven't played a good 200 songs. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IREnpHco9mw

11-19-2008, 09:40 PM	#10
DarkZtar (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 668	Re: Ranking Suggestion Some people are too lazy to play all the songs. (me included)

11-19-2008, 09:53 PM	#11
Kairon Still Defiantly Index Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Livonia, MI Age: 34 Posts: 374	Re: Ranking Suggestion Now see, I think there should be some sort of "master rank" system that combines and compiles overall rank, average rank, tier point rank, token rank, token/skill token count, and any other ranks one might think of into one number which encompasses every facet of your FFR skill and dedication. Then we take, say the top 100 or 1000 numbers, line 'em up, see who's is biggest, and make a t-shirt out of it. __________________ i am halfcrash - i make sounds - bandcamp - soundcloud - facebook

11-19-2008, 09:59 PM	#13
igotrhythm Fractals! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Meesheegan Age: 38 Posts: 6,534	Re: Ranking Suggestion I sincerely hope you're kidding, Eli. That would take so much freaking server load...not to mention that there probably won't be any more Top XXXX items because of the huge cost of making them vs. the amount the people on it (and only the people on it, most likely) would pay to get it. What you're proposing sounds about as complex as the BCS ranking system, for God's sake. >_<

11-19-2008, 10:04 PM	#14
Tasselfoot Retired BOSS Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Widget Heaven Age: 40 Posts: 25,184	Re: Ranking Suggestion kairon: you're far from the first to suggest it. the problem is... how do you accurately come up with a formula for measuring/ranking? i guess there could be some sort of sabermetric approach that could be applied, but my statistics knowledge is not that good. if anyone is a statistics whiz and wants to try to come up with an algorithm that makes logical sense, be my guest. __________________ RIP

11-20-2008, 02:11 AM	#16
Tasselfoot Retired BOSS Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Widget Heaven Age: 40 Posts: 25,184	Re: Ranking Suggestion be warned that i'm going to be a harsh critic of any potential algorithm. __________________ RIP

11-20-2008, 07:04 AM	#17
Dave&Wave FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 107	Re: Ranking Suggestion Well , the algorithim would use the average rank , but it should have something to do with how many songs you've done . This doesn't take an algorithim wiz , but just a smart person . It will use the average rank and the tier points , and propably the amount of songs you have done . Maybe if it subtracts the positive tier points from the average rank . Or ... I'm not sure . But that's just to get started . __________________ The ways of the One-Hander ~ Three-Fingered ~ Courageous ~ Legendary ~ Strong ~ Proud ~ Few ~ I am One-Hander .

11-20-2008, 08:36 AM	#18
StringsnKeys FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 87	Re: Ranking Suggestion To Dave and Wave, a new account with no songs played has an average rank of close to 40,000 having an average rank of 40,000 because you triple AAAd one song, isn't going to put you too far ahead of everybody. To Dore, I fail to see how - FFR Overall Rank: 404 FFR Average Rank: 3,278 makes you a top 1000 player based on my previous suggestion? (I could be wrong though) In any case, I get it......dragging down statistics for close to 1.6 million players and better yet, doing a bunch of calculations with them, will take a lot of server power. I suppose the goal is to play the game and enjoy yourself which won't be fun if everything starts lagging. For the sake of the argument though, I will start working on some algorithm for a "master ranking" system.

11-20-2008, 09:16 AM	#20
StringsnKeys FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 87	Re: Ranking Suggestion Fair enough but as "strange" as you think that may be, you're sitting in that spot for a reason and it's probably not because you're bad...........I don't see why with 293 AAAs, you don't deserve that spot. I'm around 590 (rank) but even though I've played virtually every song, I only have 61 AAAs. I'm sure once you've played every song you will soar past me and lots of other people in rank. I don't think the concept is that difficult to deal with. Those who play more songs, will have a better rank. Last edited by StringsnKeys; 11-20-2008 at 09:20 AM..

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