Averages = Lifebar penalty

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

well, no, not regardless. something in the game is allowing someone to bullshit patterns.

it is difficult (though possible, but not common) to bullshit patterns on beatmania iidx, but it is very possible to bullshit patterns on stepmania judge 4, and even more so on ffr with penalty-free averages.

bullshittability is determined by the game's penalizations, period.

You are strictly fixated on averages and not considering the life points of misses or boos. If you are mashing a song, the only reason why you are still surviving is because ALL of the anti timings do not outweigh in negative life point gain than what Perfects give in terms of life points.

Also, you can easily manipulate patterns and it isn't because of averages whatsoever. It is because of how lax the timing windows are, for example, jumptrilling a 1 to 4 stream. We can jumptrill it because you can manipulate the window to give you perfects when you are technically off by x millisecond on the window.

[Arch0wl]

dude. I've helped design games like this. I've mash-combo'd some of the hardest songs. I know how mashing works.

if your rebuttal is "averages aren't the only issue, goods increase lifebar too much", then the solution for a pro pass mode is obvious, now, isn't it?

[Samus Aran]

Make a hardmode pass that gives bonus credits!

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by Samus Aran

Make a hardmode pass that gives bonus credits!

oh man that's a sweet idea 8)

[Trumpet63]

So, why not also penalize first-frame goods as well, aren't they equivalent?

If I'm not crazy, this is the current arrangement of the seven frames of hit timing:

Good
Good
Perfect
Amazing
Perfect
Good
Average

[justin_ator]

Is it G/G/P/A/P/G/A or is it G/P/A/P/G/G/A? I thought the second good frame was for late hits and that early goods were harder to hit consistently due to only one frame? Perhaps not though, been a while since I toyed with FFR timing.

On a side note, I would just like to throw out there that as a newer player the life bar was one of the big things that kept me interested in the game. Got that adrenaline going when I was fighting to stay alive on a Very Challenging song through the tough part in the middle or something. I think having a mode (or making the change) not only discourages mashing more but can also be a more interesting play-type.

[Untimely Friction]

Oo oO remove boos. Make mashing CBs

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by justin_ator

On a side note, I would just like to throw out there that as a newer player the life bar was one of the big things that kept me interested in the game. Got that adrenaline going when I was fighting to stay alive on a Very Challenging song through the tough part in the middle or something. I think having a mode (or making the change) not only discourages mashing more but can also be a more interesting play-type.

that's the commonly shared experience for most players, including myself

lifebar/passing has been the prime goal/motivator across nearly all rhythm games in the 15-year history of this genre and the only exception is when passing is so easy as to be meaningless that players have to find a new metric to replace it, hence the urge to amp up passing to something meaningful again

it is, if anything, unusual for passing to not be a significant accomplishment

[SKG_Scintill]

I want zombie dragons

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

which matters more: OMGWTFT0k3n, or a sensible passing system?

I'm sold.

Do it plz.

[Wayward Vagabond]

Hard pass:

Amazing->perf(life regen 1)
Perf->good(no life regen)
Good->avg(life penalty 1)
Avg->boo(life penalty 2)
Boo=boo(life penalty 3)

[Trumpet63]

Hey, according to this potentially outdated wiki, it takes 21 boos or 21 misses to fail a song. Each takes 5% of your bar.

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by Trumpet63

Hey, according to this potentially outdated wiki, it takes 21 boos or 21 misses to fail a song. Each takes 5% of your bar.

It takes 21 boos/misses when you have a full life bar.

It takes 11 to fail out immediately from a song.

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by Wayward Vagabond

Hard pass:

Amazing->perf(life regen 1)
Perf->good(no life regen)
Good->avg(life penalty 1)
Avg->boo(life penalty 2)
Boo=boo(life penalty 3)

oh that's good

that's real good

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by PhantomPuppy

@everyone that's talking about unlocking tokens being a problem... just have different requirements? and people that already have the token unlocked don't have to do it again?

edit: not trying to sound like an ass, just a solution to the problems you're stating.

Pretty sure we're going to be putting a lot of thought into changing up some token requirements, mainly for normal tokens, and possibly some skill tokens in the nearish future. The fact that life-depleting averages would ruin some token requirements is a total non-issue.

As for the idea of life-depleting averages, sure I think it's a good idea. At least make them be neutral like they were in the past, because currently they add to your life bar in R^3.

[Rapta]

I think neutral sounds nice

[Arch0wl]

you said earlier that you "like the way averages are at the moment". whatever reason you have for wanting to make passes absurdly easy, you should make that reason clear if you're going to say we shouldn't have lifebar-depleting averages

frankly, lifebar-neutral is going half-measure. don't go half-measure. even with lifebar-neutral averages, songs are easy to pass. the benefit of this adjustment is that it makes passes MEANINGFUL, because they currently aren't.

[ca25nada]

Personally speaking, it's not the life drain that's not punishing enough, rather the recovery rate is way too fast on FFR for the drain to have any meaning whatsoever.
(like it only takes 10 goods to literally fill up half of the lifebar in FFR)

Also, since someone mentioned IIDX, these are the recovery/drain values for each note.

Values are for:
PGreat/Great/Good/Bad/Poor/mashPoor(see them as boos in FFR) respectively.
You can see the timing windows here: https://zenius-i-vanisher.com/v5.2/v...?threadid=5233

HARD Drain is reduced by half when the gauge is below 30%, recovery is still the same.
+0.16 / +0.16 / 0.00 / -5.00 / -9.00 / -5.00
EXHARD Drain remains the same even when below 30%
+0.16 / +0.16 / 0.00 / -10.00 / -18.00 / -10.00
Dan Gauge Drain is reduced by half when the gauge is below 30%, recovery is still the same.
+0.16 / +0.16 / +0.04 / -1.50 / -2.50 / -1.50


EDIT: oop typo

[Rapta]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

you said earlier that you "like the way averages are at the moment". whatever reason you have for wanting to make passes absurdly easy, you should make that reason clear if you're going to say we shouldn't have lifebar-depleting averages

frankly, lifebar-neutral is going half-measure. don't go half-measure. even with lifebar-neutral averages, songs are easy to pass. the benefit of this adjustment is that it makes passes MEANINGFUL, because they currently aren't.

I said what I said earlier because I did not like the idea proposed
(making averages a life bar penalty) but I didn't want to outwardly
say it like that so I explained my feelings on the way averages currently are.

I read an idea (averages being neutral) which sounded better than averages
being a penalty, so I thought "if this were to be changed, I would rather they be neutral".

I like passes being the way they are because I often mash through extremely hard Mania engine songs.
It is the predominant way I play to get better these days. I believe making averages a penalty would ruin that for me.
Just my opinion on \thread

[MinaciousGrace]

what about an irl life bar penalty for averages