ultimate stepmania vs korea drama thread

[EtienneSM]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

I'd be more baffled at the idea of him bs'ing to get a 10% boost to his real skill...like it's beyond idiotic for someone to do that unless you're in some sort of money tourney situation where a 1 or 2 rank diff means tons more money lol

10% boost is such an underestimate, you don't even know.


oops, double post.

[Tyson ultima]

Originally Posted by EtienneSM

idk bout you guys, but I'm wondering how he skipped two years of progress in a month


?_?

Despite my original post earlier I want to personally believe he isn't BS. Not because I am a fanboy, but because of his prior experience in other games where he managed to become top tier (o2jam, LR2 etc.) where LR2 has almost the same timing windows as SM (on easy) and obviously more keys. Take that experience and just put some time in stepmania then you are bound to be good very quickly (a pretty decent example would be Cerise's solo scores despite him not playing very much.) From general other rhythm game experience I want to believe that he might legit just be bad at certain patterns (he did mention in the chat something about a 3,4 jack I wasn't really paying attention). Also I mean time just isn't so much of an issue people like Leonid got good at Sound Voltex within months of playing when it took years for others to achieve the same result because of his prior experience.

However, I will agree he has the shittiest attitude and acts like a kid who still hangs out in the mall on friday nights.

[kommisar]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

Or most of the community has transcended the whole calling people out phase because in the end it's just a game

well yeah mostly that.


but if you feel the need to cheat to get aCcEpTeD into a community you've got some messed up priorities. games r meant to b fun etc


if i were to defend him though, I'm inconsistent as FUCK playing rhythm games. Like I can get 1 near ultimate chain on electric sister bitch exh first song then get 30 misses on squeeze next song. So I can get if he gets shitty scores once in a while we're all human

[Dynam0]

Originally Posted by EtienneSM

10% boost is such an underestimate, you don't even know.

Actually I do...skill level vs. amount of input is like an exponential relationship so a 10% increase in music speed at the highest level is by no means an "underestimate", it's an incredibly large gap.

[One Winged Angel]

dynamo dropping knowledge like a jimmy neutron bomb

[Dynam0]

I'm curious though, we should tabulate everyone's skill level on a division basis over time and try to spit out an exponential curve so we can predict how long it should take to be D9

edit: jfc it's like 20-30 years
nobody will live long enough to be D10 rip game

edit2:

okay i lied maybe it is possible but this is my own curve and it might not be that accurate so idk

[Wayward Vagabond]

I'm going to make a jhlee diss track and then step it

[One Winged Angel]

wtf would D10 be anyways like the ability to sustain combo on near 500bpm light js without intensive pattern manipulation

ya that's worth the century+ investment

[Contrapasso]

Originally Posted by Wayward Vagabond

I'm going to make a jhlee diss track and then step it

send it to me and i'll convert it to 7k so he can play it on osu!mania

[MinaciousGrace]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

another explanation -- maybe his hands were tired from the previous song?

this is certainly possible and it happens to an extent (obviously) to every other player, but he plays ~10 files in a row without displaying any attrition during or between any of the songs and then just massively drops off a cliff 5 minutes later

like we're talking about sdcb vertex gamma 1.1 to mid-A'ing disregard levels of dropoff

if you can sdcb vertex gamma 1.1 even if you're tired as fuck you can AA disregard because you should be able to do it cold

and if we're talking about physical attrition patterns for every other player we know it's observed over time, you can load up any of stian's stream vods and watch his warmup progression, peak skill scores, and then his slow roll down to being too tired to play anymore

if we were to put this in weightlifting perspective, it's like someone walks into the gym and puts 500 lbs on the bench press and does a set of 10, then when you walk over and you're like "whoa dude, that was nuts" he's like "yeah bro nuts rite watch dis"-- and then struggles to lift a 250 lb bar





the problem is most of you are only seeing the tail end of months of retarded shit attitude and super sketchy scoring and playing habits from jhlee; in isolation it probably does look a lot like we're all just jealous etc etc

most of the other players who have been wrapped up in this are just fucking tired of shit of the whole thing and honestly don't really give a shit in the first place

so to put things in perspective i'll give a brief rundown of the timeline as I see it, and as I managed to enter this shitshow pretty late in the process I don't have a very good grasp on the lead-in, however I do know that most of the top tier SM community playing and involved with osumania at the time were on friendly terms with jhlee and actively encouraged him to expand his 4k horizons in stepmania, and that he took this friendship and support and spat it back in everyone's faces

- Less than 2 months ago jhlee posts his soldiers of the stam 1.4 video of a 95.xx and calls out stian's score for being garbage. He says because he beat stian's best score of all time, he is now definitively the best 4k player on the planet. Despite being a youtube video with no handcam or keytap audio and a total lack of cbrushes nobody batted an eye at whether or not it was legit, since it's understandable that a 7k god would excel at the important elements of the file (excellent trill control and stamina).

The score was accepted as being incredibly good despite his attitude about it but when players very reasonably pointed out that there are many more dimensions to 4k than just a single file he also used this to claim he was a better speed player than staiain, citing soldiers of the stamina a "speed file" as well as "stamina".

This was shortly after I had already 95.xx'd the file as well (in a lazy run where I stopped trying at the end because I already smashed my old PR), and moved on to playing on j5. Upon seeing his score, and given my new old score that I was not particularly happy with, I played a quick session the next day, warmed up, and smashed my old PR in 2 tries with a 96+.

Now I will be the first person to tell you that I am not particularly good at soldiers of the stamina as a file, it isn't quite stamina draining enough for my stamina to really show up and it involves alternating one hand trill control patterns in handstream that I just am not very good at, although have improved at in recent time

This is a type of file that we could reasonably assume jhlee is extremely good at, and one that I know I'm fairly bad at.

Now I'm fairly proud of my score because it was a significant improvement over my previous PR and I feel that way about any PR whether or not it's a WR, but it certainly wouldn't even come into my personal top 10 scores. In fact I wouldn't have even (still don't) place my cyber induction score at the top, to me my mmmm 1.4 j5 score is a billion miles ahead, it's just much less conventionally recognizable.

Regardless cyber induction is probably one of the files in the game that plays the most to my strengths as a player, which makes the next part the hilarious part.

Prior to my soldiers of the stam score, most of the osumania community had no fucking clue who I was or that I even existed (which is fine with me), and I'm assuming jhlee didn't either (again, don't care).

Despite this, not just 2 weeks after I smashed his "best score of all time" (not his best score, the best score, self proclaimed) he posts a cyber induction 1.5 video, again, no handcam, keytaps, and with a total lack of cbrushing, this time with a score of close to 97%.

First of all, from a logical perspective I cannot stress enough how totally nonsensical this is. The ending of the file is 50% chains at 140 bpm and jhlee is notorious for having horrible jack control as well as playing purely wrist down, a playstyle that is incredibly weak at a file like cyber induction, and incredibly strong at a file like soldiers of the stamina.

Yet in 2 weeks he traverses being worse at a file he should be good at (that I'm bad at), to being better than me on a file that he should be bad at (that I'm good at).

Second of all, the video itself is hilariously autoplay; all the classics are there. Nonsensical ma/pa levels that are consistent throughout the entire song, total lack of cbrushing, nonsensical cbs at every point including during 8ths, 0 attrition of physical or mental stamina, and the fucking nail in the coffin- 2 misses and a boo in the ending jumptrill.

Normally when you're trying to look too hard for a video to see proof of autoplay and it's really legit, you end up cherry picking a single element and hyper-focusing on it. That is not the case with this video, every 10 seconds something is hilariously suspicious, oh, and also at this point suddenly his receptors are now totally off the screen. Go figure.

Now, personally I'm already convinced this video is fucking bullshit, and not only fucking bullshit, but idiotic fucking bullshit. He could have just posted a 93% and I wouldn't have batted an eye, or even a 95% and I would have been suspicious, but no, he posted a 97%.

We're talking about a 97% on a file objectively harder than soldiers of the stamina that also works against his playstyle and strengths as a player. He should have been able to 98 soldiers of the stamina comfortably, but he didn't, he just happened to post something slightly better than the previous WR. Just like he did with his new cyber induction score, hmmm a pattern is forming.... this sounds familiar.

Up until this point he has never played anything on stream that would even remotely support this level of skill. He has also never achieved any osumania score that would remotely support this level of skill. Despite this he had been consistently sending top SM players via osu pms screenshots of ridiculous off-the-wall world records, including a 96.5+ on CoS 1.1.

So the day after he posts this cyber induction video he plays on stream, this is when he gets his nergal burning 1.4 score. I'm perfectly willing to accept that this score is legit and it smashes the shit out of my score. I'm really, really, fucking bad at that file and I accept that. He edged out stian's score (which was obtained 2-3 days prior to that) by a large margin. Again, it's a file that plays into all of his strengths as a player and it's understandable he would excel at it, and in fact I would expect him to.

This score is again achieved at the very beginning of his stream, but the next part is what annihilated any doubt in my mind he was full of shit. Just like in this last stream vod, he had an insane dropoff after obtaining some initial good scores, but this time his initial scores were only a couple and his dropoff lasted hours.

He failed CoS 1.1 in the beginning second half (recall, this was only under a month ago, and the second half is literally the only part of the file that matters) after exiting the first half with under a 95% (I have to retain above a 97% to even think about AA'ing)

He played soldiers of the stamina 1.4x again, a file he just claimed to have high 95'd, barely holds together a 95 through the first 3/4ths of the song and then bombs out and quits.

He failed future dominators 1.2, which I have 10g sdcb on.

In every case he fails (technically he doesn't fail, he quits out because he begins cbrushing and doesn't know wtf to do and quits out before his life bar hits 0) due to an obvious inability to handle SM's cbrush mechanic.

The entire 2+ hours after the nergal burning score are like this. He consistently displays an inability to handle cbrushing and achieves, relative to a cyber induction 1.5 97% score, total trash to mediocre scores for the entire rest of the stream. Hmm, seems familiar.

The only remotely noteworthy score apart from his nergal burning score during that session was a 97% on UBS 1.4, which I beat over a year ago, and stian 96'd like nearly 2 years ago.

So from the perspective of all the players involved in this shitshow we're just constantly observing hilariously outlandish claims of scores he's achieved and then seeing an insane discrepancy between these and anything he's capable of producing on stream, or anything he's ever produced in osumania.

He also displays a habit of posting scores just slightly better than what other stepmania players have achieved, and has to this day never posted a score on any file for which there isn't a "famous" or "known" score for, under the guise of "not caring, hating the stupid game, and just wanting to beat our scores".

And he insists in private that all the stepmania players begin to refer to him as the #1 best player at everything, stamina, jacks, jumpstream, speed, etc. Huh, seems familiar, again.

Now remember, this was just under a month ago.

Fast forward to now, I've been saying I thought jhlee was full of shit since his cyber induction video and while I don't try to hide what I think if someone asks, I'm not posting that shit all over my twitter or calling him out publicly on osumania forums.

At this point the guy is just white noise to me, even if I wanted to believe many of his scores were legit or even if I thought many of them did make sense from a logical perspective, his clear insanely BS tendencies and need to be heralded as the best at everything puts too much doubt in my mind to take literally anything he posts seriously.

Someone takes a highlight of my stream rants saying more or less everything I outlined up here (albeit, more aggressively, cause that's what I do) and posts in on reddit and now there's this huge shitstorm of 15 year old weaboos putting words in my mouth. Whatevs, don't care.

Just the next day (2 days maybe?) Jhlee has the stream vod that I already outlined all of my problems with. I'm not just searching for a reason to want him to be full of shit, he's displaying all of the totally ridiculous inconsistencies he has been the entire time and I'm just seeing it rehashed over and over again.

Let's not forget that less than a month ago he couldn't pass CoS 1.1 on stream despite sending (very autoplay looking) screenshots to stepmania players of 96%+ scores with little to no dropoff during the second half of the file.

As both etienne and dynamo have pointed out he has traversed quite literally 2+ years of skill in ~2 months.

Even if we entirely excuse reading from the equation, a skill which he cannot develop playing any other game except stepmania, the amount of pure physical growth he would have had to experience in 2 months is just physiologically impossible.

Now sure, you can be all like "well maybe all of you who have played for the last decade just suck and don't know what you're doing and he's just on another level". Man that sounds suspiciously like the arguments used to defend every historically BS player ever.

[leonid]

There are lots of jacky as shit BMSes so being able to hit those is not something you can never attain without playing stepmania

Also people seem to consider huge inconsistencies as a very convincing factor of someone cheating but it happens more often than not I smashed L-an!ma with 6 bads on my first attempt ever and then I also failed the song after being tired as shit from a 10-hour pop'n session

You should point out some more mechanical reasons to support your claim like hiding receptors or keytap pitches going high etc

[choof]

Originally Posted by leonid

You should point out some more mechanical reasons to support your claim like hiding receptors or keytap pitches going high etc

hiding receptors makes it impossible to determine legitimacy by looking at how early/late a note is hit. but in the case of a skewed autoplaycpu, every single marv would be frame perfect

[MinaciousGrace]

Originally Posted by leonid

There are lots of jacky as shit BMSes so being able to hit those is not something you can never attain without playing stepmania

Also people seem to consider huge inconsistencies as a very convincing factor of someone cheating but it happens more often than not I smashed L-an!ma with 6 bads on my first attempt ever and then I also failed the song after being tired as shit from a 10-hour pop'n session

You should point out some more mechanical reasons to support your claim like hiding receptors or keytap pitches going high etc

I have and yes, look I know players have up and downs. I also know players can have wildly different strengths and weaknesses and discrepancies between theirs and those of other players can produce seeming inconsistencies that don't really exist.

Sometimes I boot up the game and I just play like shit and stop, and the next day I smash stuff, but this dropoff doesn't happen within the same 2 hour session that you just achieved wrs on, definitely not to the degree that I've observed with him, and definitely not discretely. It happens over time because that's just how getting tired works.

Tbh I overplay and damage and strain my muscles all the time and play like garbage for months on end, but this never happens within a single session.

I know you've been out of the loop for a while now leonid but in the last 3 years metagame concepts such as skillsets have become extremely fleshed out and the concept of difficulty and scaling has been more or less mapped out as well. Despite every player displaying personal inconsistencies within a certain margin it's ignored because it's sensible.

Jhlee passed that margin 5 times over months ago.

He used double setup to pass the ending jacks in a file just to show up the first pass' score and took a ton of shit from the BMS community for it.

Attang/eze have also achieved insane jack scores in recent time, and jhlee has literally never posted a score on a jack file yet claims he's #1 at jacks.

When I say 140 bpm chains in cyber induction I mean anchored slowchains inside 290 bpm js, not just flat chains. This is not something you can learn playing bms, and not something that is very feasible playing wrist down.

If his receptors were on the screen we could do frame analysis to check whether or not he had doctored judgements to avoid cbrushes. But we can't because they aren't, and because he deleted the vod with all the bad scores in it.

If he didn't consistently delete stream vods and only post selective screenshots we'd have more evidence either for or against him.

If he ever talked during any of his streams we would have better benchmarks to look for speeding up.

Even if I wanted to look harder jhlee actively minimizes any evidence possible that we could look at, why?

But, I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just trying to explain why I'm convinced. There are many ways to cheat the game and with enough planning and forethought they can mostly be indetectable, this is known, and it's much easier to do if you're actually good at the game. This is why all the current players have hundreds of hours of vods, this is why we have programs that display which keys are being pressed at what time, this is why we talk and we have handcams and why we highlight the good and the bad.

Anyone with a strong enough desire can produce quality fakes and this has been proven many times in the past.

[snoverpk]

E B O L A

[choof]

Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace

This is not something you can learn playing bpms,

assuming you meant bms but it's nice to see you have "improve your speed" on the mind at all times

[lurker]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

edit2:

now
now is the time
to derail my own thread
do you still have the graph from that drinking experiment you did on odi

[choof]

Originally Posted by lurker

now
now is the time
to derail my own thread
do you still have the graph from that drinking experiment you did on odi

iirc all he did was post screenshots on toml after every shot

[lurker]

there was a graph bro i know i saw it

[Dynam0]

I think masamursha or someone made the graph but it basically did this:

the drop-off might've been more severe but you get the idea

[Tyson ultima]

Originally Posted by Wayward Vagabond

I'm going to make a jhlee diss track and then step it

Better than your rebound diss track?