Amateur Tier Points

[.david]

I still think this is a great idea. I wish it was released earlier though, since now i can get real tier points. But still, i completly suport this.

[devonin]

If the top tier of amateur tier players should come in just under the bottom tier of expert tier players, that means that amateur tier players could have as many as 200 tier points potentially.

I'd set the bar lower, closer to 100, but there's a rather large discrepancy I've noticed between who considers themselves to be amateurs versus beginners.

I've got an average rank of 2,400. I've got 45 skill tokens. If I took the time to bother, I could have about 30/40 AAAs. In the Amateur Tier Point system, I -suck- I've made a system that I'm not at all capable of excelling in. I'd have a whole bunch of ATPs, but not nearly enough for even T4 in it.

People seem to have it in their heads, that brand new people in the game are "beginners" when in fact they've probably got 500 games to go before they are an actual beginner.

I mean, by average rank, I'm the 637th best player on this game. Out of what now, 1.3 million accounts? I'm at -best- a rank amateur. I'm going to be eliminated in round 3 of the -intermediate- division of the 3rd tourney.

People seem to overestimate where to start even ranking people.

There's a gigantic division under beginner to which almost every user on the site belongs: Casual.

[lXD]

lol thered be like way to many people in the top tier for this

[KilikOdagawa]

Wow. I actually agree with devonin. Rare. But that's awesome.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by lXD

lol thered be like way to many people in the top tier for this

The ATP songs that give 8 and 9 tier points are for AAAing songs that well under 75 people have AAAs for. If anything, given that these songs are by defintion, objectively easier to become good enough to AAA, that simply argues for a more fine tuned point requirement to get into the upper tiers.

If there are 700 total tier points to be had, nothing says you can't make T0 be for 690, T1 for 670 and so on. The balance will be determined by how many people settle into each tier when it is first implemented I'd assume.

If T0 has 500 people in it, we just raise the bar for T0, don't we.

Edit: Also, Jimerax I see that you're reading the thread...are you available at any time in the next couple days to look over my list and see if there are glaring screwups (Of which I'm sure there are many)

[jimerax]

Is this for people who can't get any normal Tier points or like that? and ranking won't work on ATP system of course, just for point status.

If you really want to run this point system, you need to set the point reqs and make a calculation system somehow. In Tier system FC is the minimum req for points, but seems it's a bit too strict for ATP.

[Enginuity]

I would think that attempting to keep a list of people who have a certain number of ATP's is not really worthwhile, since as stated previously, there are potentially people who want to be on the list, so they would say, make new accounts and whatnot. In addition, what does having a lot of ATP's mean? In any ranking system, you can obviously have a bracket at the top. Having a bracket on the bottom is probably possible, but theres no point. But if you are going to have a bracket somewhere in the middle, it would be hard to place, and it does not mean all that much.

Yet, what I think would be a good idea, is to have the list in a calculator style like the Tier Points have right now; with "milestones" like <30 goods, SDG, etc. I think that's decently motivational, as I know theres no chance in hell that I'm going to get an AAA on a song like {Blaze} anytime soon, but I know I have a decent chance of getting say <25 goods, or whatever the next point above a FC is, and then I can aim at that goal instead. And if I am going to get a point for doing that, it's all the more reason to do it.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by jimerax

Is this for people who can't get any normal Tier points or like that? and ranking won't work on ATP system of course, just for point status.

I'd say its more like for people who aren't actually -in- a tier currently. I fully expect T0 of the ATP to be people with plenty of Tier Points if we actually listed it ever.

That said, I'm actually perfectly okay with it just being a visible number to gauge progress. It's more valuable as a motivator for users, and a means of more accurately gauging skill for tournaments than it is as a constantly updated highscore list like Tier Points are.

If you really want to run this point system, you need to set the point reqs and make a calculation system somehow. In Tier system FC is the minimum req for points, but seems it's a bit too strict for ATP.

I've actually maintained FCs as the minimum result to get tier points, and I've done this because if we're to consider the ATP to be "Like Tier Points but for easier songs" then to me the -type- of standards need to be relatively close.

It wasn't necessarily my intention that absolutely everyone who can get tier points is just automatically in possession of every single possible amateur tier point.

The difficulty for amateurs to get ATPs -should- be as close to the same as the difficulty for experts to get TPs. I mean, feel free to disagree and I'm happy to hear the argument for lower requirements on ATPs

[.david]

I think fc should still be the minimum requirment. This makes it more similar to real TP's, therefore making them funny to get because you still feel a sence of accomplishment by fc'ing a new song and getting an atp for it.

Edit: nvm, read devonins post

[devonin]

As an aside, for example purposes, the easiest and hardest ATP songs:

24 (D) Alpha Helix
(2) AAA
(1) Single Digit Good

59 (S) MAX Forever
(9) AAA
(8) 30 or Fewer
(7) 50 or Fewer
(6) 70 or Fewer
(5) 90 or Fewer
(4) Full Combo

(So it seems that for the 8 easiest difficulty songs, the 1 point requirement is "more strict" than a full combo. But from the 8th through the 100whateverth song, FC is the bottom.)

[Doug31]

But if one real tier point = removed from ATP system, then no ATP reqs should include anything hard enough to get any real tier points, such as an AAA on Max Forever. Plus anyone who can AAA Max Forever is definitely not an amateur, anyway.

[devonin]

1 tier point != removed from ATP system.

I've already said that the T0 people in the ATP system would/could have as many as -200- "real" tier points. And I'll point out that a AAA on MAX FOrever is the -only- 9pt tier requirement, is the highest difficulty song on the ATP list at all.

See my above post about how people seem to think there are far more "amateur" players than there actually are.

Also, for context: 40 or Fewer on MAX Forever gets you 1 tier point. It would get you 7 amateur tier points. That seems fairly okay to me, considering it is the -hardest- song in the amateur tier.

Somehow "40 or fewer on Max Forever" is to the Amateur Tier, what a "AAA on Sympathizer" is to the normal tier doesn't sound that imbalanced.

[Doug31]

Then that's totally NOT amateur.

[devonin]

How many amateurs do you think the site has?

What is an amateur levelrank?
What is an amateur AAA count?
What is an amateur FC count?

So much of the trouble this idea is having comes from the connotations people apply to words like "intermediate" So many people who think of themselves as "advanced" or "expert" are actually appropriate for the "Amateur" tier point system, they just refuse to think of the term in its own context, and obsess over the idea that "Amateurs are bad" when in fact, I'd say that with 1.3 million accounts, we have maybe 100 experts, 500 amateurs, 5000 beginners, and 1.3ish million casual players.

[Enginuity]

It's very difficult to define 'amateur', especially noting that it is very difficult/painful to improve as you get better.

So, if you are going to say, give a first ATP for SDG on Alpha Helix, that assumes pretty good accuracy for easy songs. But then, you can't say that 1 ATP makes you an amateur, since that point could be lucky run. So then, it should be decently easy for low-end amateurs to AAA difficulty 1-3 songs, and easily combo most difficuty 4-7 songs. By the way, I think it is probably much easier to combo some difficulty 6-7 song than to SDG Alpha Helix.

To get to that point, it takes at least a few months commitment to the game (at least for me), depending on the amount of time spent playing. So I mean, it comes to the question as to how much time you think any player would have to play just to get a decent amount of points, and thus how many players you would want to supply with ATP's.

Then, just based on my estimates (from my own records, yeah I keep too many statistics of myself), I had 10 AAA's , level rank around 3000, and I guess I could combo a decent amount of difficulty 4-7 songs, that part I do not know. But based on your system,

(So it seems that for the 8 easiest difficulty songs, the 1 point requirement is "more strict" than a full combo. But from the 8th through the 100whateverth song, FC is the bottom.)

I would probably have had 50 or so ATPs. But there would probably be a decent amount (maybe more than 500, I'd think, since my overall rank was 1500s) people at that status.

But that was 4-5 months ago. Now, I have 50something Tier Points, but they just come off of FC's, PA far from being good enough. But the cutoff for Tier 4 is at 240 or so, and I do not imagine myself getting anywhere close within a few months. So this ATP system would still be very useful for me, as a motivational aspect.

[.david]

This is to rank people on song from difficulty 5-8, these are the 'middle' ranked songs. Therefore they are amateur songs. This is anb amazing way to rank amateur players, i hope it gets implemented this time around, since a while back it was kinda forgot about by everyone except for devonin who made the list.

[Sadokun]

I love the idea. If this gets implemented I would play a ton more for tier pts.