TWG 206: Betrayal at House on the Hill POSTGAME

[star-crossed]

TWG 206: Betrayal at House on the Hill

Hosted by: star-crossed, with some assistance from Shadow_god, sun fan, T-Force
Town Win
MVP: MixMasterLar

Setup
Daystart
9 Players
2 Traitors (Vanilla)
6 Heroes (Vanilla)
1 Seer, Random n0 green

Player List
1. NoobiesAreTheBest -- Missy Dubourde, Hero/Vanilla Townie, Survived
2. QwertyVibin -- Zoe Ingstrom, Traitor/Vanilla Wolf, Hanged Day 0
3. Arp! -- Father Rhinehardt, Hero/Vanilla Townie, Survived
4. mellonxcollie -- Brandon Jaspers, Hero/Vanilla Townie, Survived
5. Lights -- Jenny LeClerc, Seer, Survived
6. MixMasterLar -- Professor Longfellow, Hero/Vanilla Townie, Killed Night 1
7. Charu -- Madame Zostra, Hero/Vanilla Townie, Survived
8. Deamerai (FreezinICE played D0) -- Ox Bellows, Hero/Vanilla Townie, Survived
9. Hateandhatred as of N1 (E-B-E played D0) -- Heather Granville, Traitor/Vanilla Wolf, Hanged D0

Night Actions:

N0:
Lights is informed mellonxcollie is green.

N1:
Hateandhatred kills MixMasterLar.
Lights seers Arp! as green

wolfchat: https://discord.gg/7hHwtv597
deadchat: https://discord.gg/aarNfrW8ad
game thread: https://www.flashflashrevolution.com...d.php?t=154432
signups: https://www.flashflashrevolution.com...d.php?t=154418

Summary
This was the first TWG following the creation of the #the-werewolf-game channel in the official FFR discord server, which allowed us to attract a lot of new players that wanted to try the game. Much of the start of D0 focused on conversations about gaming and movies. There were three players that stood out as inactive (under the post count minimum.) The most inactive of the three was veteran FreezinICE, and so for most of the day, most votes stagnated there. Arp! stood out as an eager and vocal beginner to TWG. Noobies made a pretty good impression as well, despite some mild suspicion from Charu.

As some game talk began, disagreements emerged about best strategies. Lights spoke from the perspective of extensive Town of Salem experience, while Charu and others advised of how TWG is typically played from their perspective and how interactions lead to info later. Eventually, some veteran players seemed to interpret Lights as having hinted heavily to being the seer and expressed concern. Charu emerged as the most likely active player to be voted out.

MixMasterLar had a bad gut feeling about the status quo. He led the conversation in the last few minutes of the day about the possibility of switching to a different inactive target. raeko was amenable to this. They accidentally were voting opposite people, and raeko got them organized onto a single target. Arp! seemingly couldn't sleep due to wanting to know how the day would end. They sealed the deal with the third vote. QwertyVibin was voted out and flipped wolf.

Deamerai took over Freezin's spot, giving it a try out despite being very new to social deduction games. Hateandhatred substituted in for an inactive wolf having already lost his partner in crime. Despite the odds and never having been a wolf before, he was eager to do his best to embrace the role. Lights checked out Arp! and Hateandhatred killed MixMasterLar.

Initially, most players seemed to have similar ideas on who was most trustworthy based on the previous day, but weren't necessarily sure what should happen next. Charu proposed a strategy where people shared who their N1 target was if they were the seer, which most players agreed to. Charu placed the first vote on Hateandhatred due to process of elimination. Hateandhatred's analysis rubbed raeko the wrong way due to it not focusing on the day end events. Noobies and Lights also joined in, instaing the last wolf well before the day was due to end and before Deamerai could really have the chance to play!

Overall, the town worked together well as a whole to eliminate the wolves, creating an environment where process of elimination more easily led to the inactive wolves. Almost every town player voted out at least one wolf. The host awarded MVP based on their leadership, effort in encouraging conversation and the fact that they were killed instead of the seer. There are other obvious honorable mentions.

Thanks for playing/spectating and we hope to see you involved in TWG in the future.

[star-crossed]

What's next?
Host voting! By FFR message or DM, if you are interested in being a host and have a game idea, send over a summary of your proposal to me. Once I get at least 3-4 suggestions, I will put up a thread where the community can vote on the next game.

[Charu]

I heavily figured Light was the Seer, still though...

[NoobiesAreTheBest]

thank you guys for having me here, it was really fun to get to know you guys and play with all of you!

[Lights]

I'm a little curious what i said that could hint that i was a seer?

I mean I guess other than pushing a strategy that heavily revolved around the seer.

[MixMasterLar]

Originally Posted by Lights

I'm a little curious what i said that could hint that i was a seer?

I mean I guess other than pushing a strategy that heavily revolved around the seer.

"I mean, I wouldn't have to worry about that"

Raeko, Charu and I all instantly knew you were seer and your check was Raeko, so when you didn't die I knew right then it wasn't Charu or Raeko but someone who hasn't read the thread.

Too bad I was dead, tho :/ which by the way, why was everyone still saying they wouldn't vote me? I died as town lmao

Like I said in the other thread, though:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

Anyway, excellent game for town. This is a perfect example that sometimes finding town and narrowing down possible scum is as valid as just finding scum directly. This was definitely a strong showing for most of you.

Lights, Noobs and Arp played a fantastic game, the only flaws simply from it being their first time. I know my 5th game was much less optimal then this, so I'm excited to play with you guys again in the future

[Lights]

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

"I mean, I wouldn't have to worry about that"

Raeko, Charu and I all instantly knew you were seer and your check was Raeko, so when you didn't die I knew right then it wasn't Charu or Raeko but someone who hasn't read the thread.

Too bad I was dead, tho :/ which by the way, why was everyone still saying they wouldn't vote me? I died as town lmao

Like I said in the other thread, though:


Lights, Noobs and Arp played a fantastic game, the only flaws simply from it being their first time. I know my 5th game was much less optimal then this, so I'm excited to play with you guys again in the future

the ironic part about that is that wasn't even what it was meant to be- just catastrophically poor phrasing. it was intended to be a partially condescending way of saying "you guys can panic over a wolf pretending to be seer, but it only works once and gives us a free wolf kill". im ngl based on the reactions to that comment i thought i was being suspected as a wolf, didnt even consider the seer angle. going to have to be more cautious of how i phrase things going forward, im bad at wordsing

[the sun fan]

I want to give just a bit of math for the people who were talking about not voting anyone during the day phase being the best idea. Ignoring the rule and placing ourselves in a hypothetical game where it is an option to kill no one, lets do some math.

(It is important that this game begins with an odd number of players and begins with a day phase, rather than a night phase. Almost all games run on FFR will follow this formula)
9 players, day start. No possibility of blocking the wolf kill at night.
9 players into 9 players after killing no one during the day.
8 players after wolves kill a town.
8 players into 8
8 players into 7
7 players into 7
7 players into 6
6 players into 6
6 players into 5; 3 town versus 2 wolves (I'll talk about the seer possibilities below)

In this scenario, town doesn't kill someone at all until they have to according to the math. Town exchanges the ability to kill two players for making the wolves reveal four players as town, gradually. The seer begins the game with the knowledge of a random town player's innocence, and gets a maximum of four chances to investigate a player's alignment.

If the seer holds onto their information until final 5, they run the risk of getting counterclaimed and losing the battle. Even if they have a treasure trove of information, town can still lose because of a coordinated attack by the wolves. This can also happen earlier in the game if the seer claims, but in this scenario, town loses by killing the seer, whereas earlier town is able to kill a wolf immediately after
I'm completely ignoring a townie other than the seer claiming seer don't make this any harder than it has to be please don't do that

so, lets say they claim in final 7 instead, giving town two chances of killing a wolf. wolves can counterclaim if they feel like it, but they aren't likely priced into it. This is a little better for town, they have a bit more flexibility, and there's even a chance that a seer can deliver town an auto-win in this situation by giving town three greens plus themselves as the fourth confirmed.

Or, what about just killing no one on the first day, then killing people after that? The first day is when town has no information, right? Wouldn't it be better to sleep and use the information that wolves give town by confirming a member as town?

So, why is this a sub-optimal strategy?

In short, town has ONE and only one way of killing wolves, voting for them during the day. If town takes every opportunity to do this, they have at least three chances before they could lose the game by voting incorrectly three times in a row, and a maximum of four chances with the fourth being in a final three, the lowest number of players that can exist in a twg game.

These chances for town are sacred, and losing one represents a huge swing against town's chances of winning the game. Even if town sleeps the first day, AND the seer investigates a wolf at night, AND the wolves don't kill the seer that night, town still sacrificed a chance to kill the wolves, and this is almost always worse than taking that chance, especially early in the game.

[Hateandhatred]

For insight purpose, I decided to nightkill MML because I was already subbing in a precarious position. Can't say I for sure knew Lights was seer but it was a secondary objective for me and I really wanted to take out some of the veteran presence from the game to be in a better position to steer the game in my favor, and I was willing to let a seer run loose for a few nights to achieve this. I wanted to push the pressure towards raeko and charu, did a poor (but honest imo) job doing it, didn't expect to be already out of the game after getting some rest, but I respect it and everyone has played a great game this time around.

My goal was to hunt down either of these two and kill the other one on the following night, then figured I'd have a fighting chance if I could take out the seer next without drawing wolf suspicion.

Also, I thought I addressed EOD, but frankly I was way too tired when I made my longpost and I intended to quote the bussing stuff from earlier (I even had it opened in another tab that I forgot to close when I went to bed)

[MixMasterLar]

It seems your sleepiness made you over think the plan, my dude

Shoulda nuked the seer then tried to subtly get the newbs to suspect Charu, saving Raeko for the next kill.

You do kinda have to not be asleep to ward off Charu's post tho in both plans, so it's probably the same result

[MixMasterLar]

Am honored I'm scarier them Charu though!

[Hateandhatred]

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

It seems your sleepiness made you over think the plan, my dude

Shoulda nuked the seer then tried to subtly get the newbs to suspect Charu, saving Raeko for the next kill.

You do kinda have to not be asleep to ward off Charu's post tho in both plans, so it's probably the same result

I didn't think you would let go of the idea that the D0 targets (ebe and qwerty) were a wolf duo and you drove the wagon. I also didn't think I could worm my way out of this situation and I'd rather have the seer active than have you, raeko and charu drive the game onto me. I nightkilled you and hoped to drive a wagon on either charu or raeko the next day and nightkill the other vet, then sweet talk the beginners in that being wrong happens and I shouldn't be seen as wolf simply for being wrong.

I saw this as the only way to recover from such a terrible wolf position to sub in, and I failed to do it, but in that context I thought my #1 priority was eliminating the vets before I even considered hunting the seer (who, like I said, I was not 100% sure about, but I was 100% sure about the vets being a huge problem for me)

[Hateandhatred]

Hell, it's also possible I would have done Lights depending on how things played out, but not while you three were alive

[MixMasterLar]

It's not a terrible plan to be honest, I don't hate it
We really did put those two slots into a bad situation

I think I speak with too much info because had Lights died I would have probably tinfoiled Charu pretty hard (I knew Raeko was Light's n0 check, and it didn't seem like most picked up/would act on the "slip");had you claim you hadn't yet read everything I'm pretty sure you would have gotten a free day pass

But yeah, this isn't criticism or anything and in a world where that's the concern I totally see why you did it that way

[BruceAdler]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

I want to give just a bit of math for the people who were talking about not voting anyone during the day phase being the best idea. Ignoring the rule and placing ourselves in a hypothetical game where it is an option to kill no one, lets do some math.

(It is important that this game begins with an odd number of players and begins with a day phase, rather than a night phase. Almost all games run on FFR will follow this formula)
9 players, day start. No possibility of blocking the wolf kill at night.
9 players into 9 players after killing no one during the day.
8 players after wolves kill a town.
8 players into 8
8 players into 7
7 players into 7
7 players into 6
6 players into 6
6 players into 5; 3 town versus 2 wolves (I'll talk about the seer possibilities below)

In this scenario, town doesn't kill someone at all until they have to according to the math. Town exchanges the ability to kill two players for making the wolves reveal four players as town, gradually. The seer begins the game with the knowledge of a random town player's innocence, and gets a maximum of four chances to investigate a player's alignment.

If the seer holds onto their information until final 5, they run the risk of getting counterclaimed and losing the battle. Even if they have a treasure trove of information, town can still lose because of a coordinated attack by the wolves. This can also happen earlier in the game if the seer claims, but in this scenario, town loses by killing the seer, whereas earlier town is able to kill a wolf immediately after
I'm completely ignoring a townie other than the seer claiming seer don't make this any harder than it has to be please don't do that

so, lets say they claim in final 7 instead, giving town two chances of killing a wolf. wolves can counterclaim if they feel like it, but they aren't likely priced into it. This is a little better for town, they have a bit more flexibility, and there's even a chance that a seer can deliver town an auto-win in this situation by giving town three greens plus themselves as the fourth confirmed.

Or, what about just killing no one on the first day, then killing people after that? The first day is when town has no information, right? Wouldn't it be better to sleep and use the information that wolves give town by confirming a member as town?

So, why is this a sub-optimal strategy?

In short, town has ONE and only one way of killing wolves, voting for them during the day. If town takes every opportunity to do this, they have at least three chances before they could lose the game by voting incorrectly three times in a row, and a maximum of four chances with the fourth being in a final three, the lowest number of players that can exist in a twg game.

These chances for town are sacred, and losing one represents a huge swing against town's chances of winning the game. Even if town sleeps the first day, AND the seer investigates a wolf at night, AND the wolves don't kill the seer that night, town still sacrificed a chance to kill the wolves, and this is almost always worse than taking that chance, especially early in the game.

In my opinion strategies are killing the fun of playing such games in the beginning,second of all you are right but if it's not fun what's the point of it

[the sun fan]

Originally Posted by BruceAdler

In my opinion strategies are killing the fun of playing such games in the beginning,second of all you are right but if it's not fun what's the point of it

I halfway agree with you, its more that I enjoy a game where both sides play as optimally as possible, that creates the most interesting scenarios for me, its probably why I enjoy balanced games immensely more than unbalanced ones.

When I am playing Among Us (or, played, I guess. Don't really play it a ton anymore), I get really tilted when crew does a bunch of stuff that feels against the spirit of the game, but strangles the imposters, like button after someone starts the vial task so that the cooldown finishes after the meeting. I don't think playing with like... mechanical and mathematical insight is making the game unfun in the same way that people don't often vote when there are 7 people left in 2 imposter games in Among Us.

There are plenty of people who agree with you, and plenty who agree with me. What I really appreciate and think more people should do in these scenarios is what you did, which is acknowledge that the math and reasoning here is correct on my end, but challenge it regardless for what you want out of a game. That was pretty cool and I don't see that very often.

Games that are too mechanical, for example games where there is just a bunch of power roles and town can stomp the wolves because there isn't really anything that the wolves can do mechanically to prevent this from happening are probably games you and I would dislike for the same reasons.

[FreezinIce]

pretty late, but sorry for not being active. Thankfully someone was willing to sub in for me but I'll try not to let it happen again