Idea for getting more easier files in game

[dore]

There've been a couple threads bemoaning the lack of easy files and discussing reasons why etc etc. I thought of a simple way to encourage submissions of easier stuff. Allow easy files to be submitted in excess of a simartist's submission cap.

Obviously, there are details to be considered, and since I'm not in charge of that sort of thing, I don't have a completely formulated plan to execute this suggestion, but some ideas:

-Allow a fixed number (say, 2) of easy submissions per batch
-Allow easy submissions equaling a percentage of the artist's usual cap (50% seems fair)
-Allow unlimited submissions of easy files (seems like a bad idea)

Some considerations that would need considering (har har):

-What difficulty level constitutes "easy" and where should it cut off
-How to handle an artist going over their limit because a file is borderline and they think it should count as easy but it is judged to be harder than that limit (maybe allow it once and then start assessing penalties to submission limits to the next batch)
-Raising judging standards for easy files (so that judges don't go "lol boring" or "lol it's easy so it must be ok")
-Gradually adding [Light] versions of popular files

Just some thoughts. Maybe it'll go somewhere

[cedolad]

I like the idea of allowing easy files to exceed an simartist's cap. I'd have to agree with maybe an easier file equaling half that of a regular file to encourage people to submit maybe two easy files and a harder one if they have 10+ points.

Also I think fixing the judging standards would be more effective, along with making [Light] versions of more popular files. It could really broaden the scope for easy files, and give us more charts per song.

edit: here's another idea, maybe like every other batch or so, give double artist points for easier files, just to encourage submissions.

[alloyus]

Allowing 50% of cap sounds cool, but I don't think going over the cap should give artist points (any easy files submitted for the excess just shouldn't count I mean)

[dore]

Originally Posted by cedolad

edit: here's another idea, maybe like every other batch or so, give double artist points for easier files, just to encourage submissions.

yeah that's a good idea too, or maybe something like getting an extra .5 SAP for every file under x difficulty

[cedolad]

Originally Posted by alloyus

Allowing 50% of cap sounds cool, but I don't think going over the cap should give artist points (any easy files submitted for the excess just shouldn't count I mean)

I agree with this.

Originally Posted by dore

yeah that's a good idea too, or maybe something like getting an extra .5 SAP for every file under x difficulty

Maybe an extra .5, but then what if say only one of the two files submitted gets accepted, then we're dealing with certain artists having half points.

[Xiz]

Depending on how many people decide to submit easy files, I would say only apply this to the next batch, to see how many easy files we get. And what exactly is the level for 'easy' really?

[PrawnSkunk]

or, ya know, have another easy songs batch.

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

Originally Posted by PrawnSkunk

or, ya know, have another easy songs batch.

The problem I see with this is that if a chart barely doesn't hit the requirement after the adjustment, it's just forced to take one of their other submissions in the next batch or it's forever lost.

I like the idea but maybe instead to keep the numbers more tame, allow everyone one extra submission assuming the chart is around a difficulty point. If someone submits a chart that's too high, it's simply ignored and they're not penalized.

But yes either another easy chart batch needs to be done, or someone else to encourage newer charts to be submitted that are on the "easier" side.

Heck event team could even do a fun little event out of it if they wanted to with the results of either. I think that would be super neat.

[Garquillex]

What difficulty range are we looking at? I suspect we only want a finite amount of the very easiest songs to encourage players to play harder and better files.

[bmah]

I suspect people are talking about files of 20-40 or even 20-50 on the new difficulty scale.

1-20 (new scale) would be nice too I suppose, but they're certainly not easy to come by (whether it's a song that fits the difficulty or even finding a song that could be appropriately simplified enough to that degree).

[Garquillex]

I might be able to make a small list of songs fit for 8-20. I can think of a few dance songs from authors we could get permission from (smiletron?) that could make good easy files

I'll be focusing on songs around 20-55 if all goes well

[dore]

I was thinking <30ish range. You can always underchart a song to make a really easy file out of it. It might not 'fit' per se but I'm sure new players appreciate exciting songs with easier charts. I was thinking about making a few really easy Disturbed songs for example, because lots of people like Disturbed and who cares if they're undercharted? that's not the audience

[smartdude1212]

This may not yield a bunch of incredibly easy files, but what if there were another simfile competition solely for people who do not have a file on FFR yet? The songs could be chosen such that they may force easier steps (or at least have a static BPM and wouldn't promote stupid layering), and, though this isn't necessarily true, any newer simartist would likely create an easier file anyway (let's forget that Rob's first file was a mid-80, etc.).

Mind you it could be somewhat difficult to find participants for this though, since anybody who hasn't stepped anything for FFR yet probably either really sucks at stepping (and thus the judges haven't allowed any of their work through) or just can't be assed to learn how to step anything in DDReam/SM (luckily if it's an easier file SM works just fine and it's somewhat user-friendly in my experience). This excludes all the SM-only steppers, heh.

But I've only finished about 4 files in my life and have one in-game so what do I know...

[qqwref]

I think we first need a better understanding of what makes a *good* easy file - that is, a file that the kind of people who play easy files will enjoy. Have some people figure this out and get all the judges to agree on it.

Only then can we do easy file batches, free easy chart submissions, [Light] versions of popular files, and so on. Those are all good ideas but if we aren't getting good charts into the game - charts that will please the people who are just barely able to play those difficulties - there's no point.

[PrawnSkunk]

Originally Posted by smartdude1212

This may not yield a bunch of incredibly easy files, but what if there were another simfile competition solely for people who do not have a file on FFR yet? The songs could be chosen such that they may force easier steps (or at least have a static BPM and wouldn't promote stupid layering), and, though this isn't necessarily true, any newer simartist would likely create an easier file anyway (let's forget that Rob's first file was a mid-80, etc.).

Mind you it could be somewhat difficult to find participants for this though, since anybody who hasn't stepped anything for FFR yet probably either really sucks at stepping (and thus the judges haven't allowed any of their work through) or just can't be assed to learn how to step anything in DDReam/SM (luckily if it's an easier file SM works just fine and it's somewhat user-friendly in my experience).

But I've only finished about 4 files in my life and have one in-game so what do I know...

Unfortunately I have to agree with the faults you brought up, even though this is an interesting idea. Having a batch exclusively for new step artists would be both very empty and irrefutably produce stepfiles with under-par quality. In order to accommodate this, the standard of chart acceptance would have to be dramatically lowered.

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

Originally Posted by bmah

I suspect people are talking about files of 20-40 or even 20-50 on the new difficulty scale.

I'm refering to the range of whatever 1-low 8 on the old scale is in the new scale.

Originally Posted by qqwref

I think we first need a better understanding of what makes a *good* easy file - that is, a file that the kind of people who play easy files will enjoy. Have some people figure this out and get all the judges to agree on it.

What is "good" is always going to be subjective. Technically Power is a good chart. As long as it makes sense and meets whatever the standards of the judges are, it to a degree is good. (There's obvious reasons I add the "to a degree.")

Just being able to have charts as a learning curve is a good enjoyment. Stray away from being LOL TECHNICAL to making it more "playable" ect. This means tossing specific things like "PR" aside in some cases.

I cannot stand that a chart that's deliberately under-stepped is still nazi'd with things like "PR."

[Garquillex]

Originally Posted by qqwref

I think we first need a better understanding of what makes a *good* easy file - that is, a file that the kind of people who play easy files will enjoy. Have some people figure this out and get all the judges to agree on it.

Only then can we do easy file batches, free easy chart submissions, [Light] versions of popular files, and so on. Those are all good ideas but if we aren't getting good charts into the game - charts that will please the people who are just barely able to play those difficulties - there's no point.

Maybe we can reflect on the easy files we all really liked when we were newbies? I started out on FFR with no experience, and I still remember all the files I really liked, and why I liked them.

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by Xx{Midnight}xX

What is "good" is always going to be subjective. Technically Power is a good chart. As long as it makes sense and meets whatever the standards of the judges are, it to a degree is good.

Of course. And there's nothing wrong with Power. It's just that what is good for easy charts is not the same as what is good for hard charts (e.g. easy charts should generally not step every sound). And we have to make sure people are comfortable with accepting an easy chart for a song that could be stepped much harder. The current system encourages easy charts that are basically highly technical files for slow, boring songs. I don't think there is any actual audience for charts like that.

Originally Posted by Xx{Midnight}xX

I cannot stand that a chart that's deliberately under-stepped is still nazi'd with things like "PR."

PR isn't pedantic just because you can't do it. Maybe newbies can't tell when a song is PR'd; I don't know. But there's certainly nothing wrong with it unless it creates patterns that are too hard for the difficulty. And it can certainly make files more fun to play for higher-level players. I absolutely don't think we should insist on it for easy charts, though.

[dore]

Originally Posted by qqwref

I think we first need a better understanding of what makes a *good* easy file - that is, a file that the kind of people who play easy files will enjoy. Have some people figure this out and get all the judges to agree on it.

Only then can we do easy file batches, free easy chart submissions, [Light] versions of popular files, and so on. Those are all good ideas but if we aren't getting good charts into the game - charts that will please the people who are just barely able to play those difficulties - there's no point.

My experience from introducing friends to the game is that they enjoy charts that they can easily pick out exactly what each arrow is going to. You don't have to have perfect PR, but if the pattern shapes itself like a line in the music then they will recognize what they're tapping to and a) be able to follow it better, b) score better because they don't have to read as much, and c) feel more like they were a part of the music instead of hitting random arrows. For really really easy stuff there's only so much of that you can do, but for slightly higher levels you can follow a simple but prevalent line with decent PR (minding not to make the patterns too tricky for PR sake) and the file will be more enjoyable. If the player can say "hey I'm playing the vocal line", then the file will play better, and then you can introduce layering without it being too overwhelming.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by qqwref

PR isn't pedantic just because you can't do it. Maybe newbies can't tell when a song is PR'd; I don't know.

From my experience they most definitely can. It's the sort of thing that makes Guitar Hero easy charts so accessible, they can tell there's PR and a rhythmic basis for what they're playing even if it's extremely watered down.

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

Originally Posted by qqwref

I absolutely don't think we should insist on it for easy charts, though.

This is exactly what I was saying