Dump Batch Discussion Thread

[ToonE156]

Originally Posted by klimtkiller

FFR has for years prided itself on having high-quality files; charting was down to an artform, and it actually took skill to make a good chart. this is also probably demotivating for the stepartists who put so much effort making their chart perfect all this time. it’s like it was pointless and it’s like, why continue to put in effort anymore into charts, or chart at all?

dawg



ayo can we make his posts a copypasta at this point

[storn42]

Originally Posted by ToonE156

dawg



ayo can we make his posts a copypasta at this point

Toone, you may disagree with him, but posting content that amounts to "lol ur wrong u dumb" isnt going to help anything. This is luke the 3rd post you've made like this and it doesn't add to the conversation. You may disagree, but atleast give him the courtesy of an actual response.

Originally Posted by klimtkiller

FFR has for years prided itself on having high-quality files; charting was down to an artform, and it actually took skill to make a good chart. this is also probably demotivating for the stepartists who put so much effort making their chart perfect all this time. it’s like it was pointless and it’s like, why continue to put in effort anymore into charts, or chart at all?

allowing dumps is a huge step in the wrong direction.

Your big assumption here is that because a chart is a dump, it is inherently a bad chart. This is far from the truth. There are tons of fantastically well made dumps out there. There are also a lot of really bad ones, but just as many bad non dumps exist (just look at legacy files) we will be denying a bunch of dumps because of quality, just like any other batch. Take a serious look at rainshower and tell me why its a bad chart. It must be since its a dump. If its a chart so bad it should be rejected you should have no problems tearing it apart. Its just a good chart and being a dump doesnt change that.

[s1rnight]

i did always find it exciting that the charts were stepped faithfully to the music! it made me feel as though there was this like, vast theory of how music worked that grew more aggressive and started to growl as the charts grew more intense… it feels “whole” to me…

[Lights]

Originally Posted by klimtkiller

FFR has for years prided itself on having high-quality files; charting was down to an artform, and it actually took skill to make a good chart. this is also probably demotivating for the stepartists who put so much effort making their chart perfect all this time. it’s like it was pointless and it’s like, why continue to put in effort anymore into charts, or chart at all?

allowing dumps is a huge step in the wrong direction.

Ok, but dumps and high quality files are not mutually exclusive, nor is it fair to say that dumps are not a part of this art-form. I don't know where you get off automatically classifying dumps as a lower tier of chart, but its a rather rude generalization to make about a genre of chart that has a plethora of high quality content. Especially to those stepartists that you are apparently trying to sympathize with?

[Wiosna]

I was going to write a really long post talking about:
- how klimt's idea of a "dump" is grossly misguided and is nowadays a boogeyman used to invalidate a specific style of charting,
- how dump charts aren't necessarily made for the sake of having extremely difficult charts in-game (most dump charts here are rated 90-100),
- how FFR doesn't actively seek "high quality files" and more files that are logically consistent in itself (which is funnily enough also one of the dump batch's criteria),
- how there are already charts that can be safely classified as dumps in-game, and how the prescriptive idea of layering sounds that exist but are extremely soft being the only legitimate way of having files in-game to be stupid and counterintuitive to how players perceive music,
- how dump charts do create a specific affect and feel that is markedly different from most non-dumps regardless and accepting dumps will cause a marked shift in charting meta today (and this is something that judges will have to take note of in the future, though I think FFR's past history has insulated it from any massive paradigm shift in charting),
- and how there's already an existing demand for dump charts outside of FFR (Etterna, osu!mania, etc.) and that we're no longer an insular community celebrating their own styles and maxims of charting,

but it's not really worth anyone's time and effort. Instead I'll proceed to shitpost: Dumps are great because they allow people who are not talented enough to make regular stepcharts to participate in the stepping community

[Wiosna]

No but seriously, this implied idea of "dumps" being this exhibition of random notes farted all over the place is massively disrespectful. Even dumps that are often taken seriously by players had some form of structure and musical relevance in it, as tenuous as it can appear to charters who are much more acclimated to the idea of "placing notes to the start of peaks". This idea of dumps being a dumpster fire is heavily misguided and it annoys me to no end that this is still being brought up in god's year 2022.

And it has been at least 12 years since then (20 if you want to be generous). With the general communal acceptance in both Etterna/StepMania and osu!mania that dump charting and more literal charting are not separate islands, but that dump charting is an extension of literal charting, and the increased prominence of charters who chart both literal charts and dump charts (Tim/Valedict, DourGent/Sanctuary, Ptet, Windoze, Zeta, Celebellian, Monheim/Civilization, Vortex, hana, etc.), many dump charts have become much less freeform and loose in structure and have become much tighter and rigorous in structure. Not all dumps are like this, but the modern Etterna/osu!mania dump worth its salt has at least some form of visible structure. You might disagree with the structure (and I definitely do for most), but they are valid charting all the same. So why is this idea that dumps are giant blobs of amorphous notes still around when this idea has been curbed at least seven years ago?

And even the dump batch I think isn't going to accept all types of dumps -- improvisational ones (where the chart provides a secondary voice to the music rather than following the music proper) are getting shafted here. I think that the idea of valuing consistency above all else and that a section has to be represented the same way throughout the chart to be backwards as well. We're not computers processing objective characteristics of music; we are heavily influenced by the sections that come before and after them. We also tend to make patterns or point out specific things in music that we want to emphasise that might not be prominent in a spectogram. It can also be in good taste for charters to willingly grab the attention of the player by focusing on specific elements in the song that they might not necessarily focus on otherwise. This is less of an indictment on the head judges working on the dump batch, but more of a disparagement of maximal musical consistency as a positive, which is what klimt is espousing as "high quality" in this discussion -- because that's what is being primarily judged in FFR judging today.

Yes, dump charts have a profoundly different feel from literal charts. Each individual note and chord will feel notably weaker than literal charts, because most notes in literal charts go to the attack of each sound -- they are sharp and pronounced. Dumps do not have this correlation. But players don't seem to mind this anywhere as much as people who are against dumps believe that they do. They aren't necessarily looking for a literal transcription of sound to chart (otherwise charts that go to quiet 32nd arpeggios would get praised from end to end, but charting quiet sounds to bolster difficulty has been eschewed by many charters and often times many players too) -- they're typically looking for a chart that is holistically apposite to the music at hand. Dumps accomplish that goal well.

[ToonE156]

Originally Posted by storn42

Toone, you may disagree with him, but posting content that amounts to "lol ur wrong u dumb" isnt going to help anything. This is luke the 3rd post you've made like this and it doesn't add to the conversation. You may disagree, but atleast give him the courtesy of an actual response.

Fair but his points are so out there and disrespectful to charters that the flaws in his arguments present themselves and i don't really need to say much lol. Literally anyone who has played Etterna for 5 seconds can easily disprove him


/uj fr tho, Klimt, please try to make a point without being disrespectful to charters who put hours and days into charts, cause that's how we view your responses

[loftyb]

If he reads April’s posts there’s nothing much else to say on the matter.

It does raise an interesting question, though, and one that FFR might actually consider thinking about: Are what FFR is looking for ACTUALLY considered “dump” charts or does a new term need to be made for it? Rebranding for the appeasement of all the klim’s out there.

From a historical standpoint at least, dump charts were light-hearted, inherently limitless, creative, surprising, misrepresentational, and in some cases literal mockeries. As someone who has probably seen this trend change in front of their eyes more than anyone else (in part BECAUSE of myself and Mina) I would like to assert that what FFR is looking for is more like the aforementioned charters April mentioned—people who follow music based rules that are more so dictated by vocal intensity, instrumental pacing, and pattern identity and less about PR and layering (this still plays a part obviously) These charts are very different than something that myself or Mina or someone who enjoys more of the first quality of “dumps” would chart, though we certainly bridged the gap.

Being one of the two minty pack judges, which again really helped to popularize this newer way of “dumping” more than any other pack series, I can tell you I’ve judged my fair share of these kinds of files. They are great for scoring, great for the feeling of “wow I’m playing this song and it’s actually fun and challenging” but there is certainly nothing all that surprising, limitless, joking or any of the other “dump” qualities about them. Not to discredit these charters at all, some are literally my favorite charters, but once FFR brought up that they were including “dumps” I knew it was these kinds of charts they wanted. There is nothing remotely “dumpy” about these files. Most of them require an extremely vast knowledge of patterning, structure, and alternate forms of representation than traditional charting. Mina and I popularized the term technical dumping because there was nothing much else to say at the time. I think we’ve gotten past the point of calling these creations “dumps” and that’s coming from a dump charter.

Call it something else.

[AutotelicBrown]

I thought we were supposed to call them farts

[loftyb]

8====D

[riktoi]

Ugh, why can't people make REAL dumps? As in, take them in the toilet.

[Xayphon]

Originally Posted by AutotelicBrown

I thought we were supposed to call them farts

i Agree

[suicidaln00b]

the slippery slope of anime dumps

[klimtkiller]

It seems people are misinterpreting what i’m saying, as if I am implying that dumpfiles = TERRIBLE and shouldn’t have any place.

I think there could be a separate place/section for dumps to allow for people to go wild.

The problem I have is just adding dumps to the game like any other chart. It ruins the charting integrity FFR has had for years.

[ToonE156]

Well Lofty, what name do you think would be best other than dumps?

[Lights]

Originally Posted by klimtkiller

It seems people are misinterpreting what i’m saying, as if I am implying that dumpfiles = TERRIBLE and shouldn’t have any place.

I think there could be a separate place/section for dumps to allow for people to go wild.

The problem I have is just adding dumps to the game like any other chart. It ruins the charting integrity FFR has had for years.

I don't think you've properly demonstrated how it ruins anything because they are, in fact, just like any other chart in game. Many files in FFR use different philosophies on how to approach patterning already- the diversity of approach is already there, this specific classification just hasn't been explored quite as much as other approaches.

Your entire argument appears to be based on an assertion that dump charting is inherently a lower class of file than a literally interpreted take on a file and until you can go to show that, I don't believe your assertions hold any serious merit.

As stated previously by another poster- if dumps are truly a lesser form of chart, you should have no problems showing how a file like Rainshower is flawed. Perhaps doing so would give you a bit more ground to stand on.

[klimtkiller]

Originally Posted by Lights

I don't think you've properly demonstrated how it ruins anything because they are, in fact, just like any other chart in game. Many files in FFR use different philosophies on how to approach patterning already- the diversity of approach is already there, this specific classification just hasn't been explored quite as much as other approaches.

Your entire argument appears to be based on an assertion that dump charting is inherently a lower class of file than a literally interpreted take on a file and until you can go to show that, I don't believe your assertions hold any serious merit.

As stated previously by another poster- if dumps are truly a lesser form of chart, you should have no problems showing how a file like Rainshower is flawed. Perhaps doing so would give you a bit more ground to stand on.

I don’t know what rainshower is.

I’m not talking about patterning, although even in the case of patterning, it still had to be consistent and make coherent sense for the chart. the problem I have is allowing ghost notes, and charting to vague sounds which practically don’t exist.

take image material from fullereneshift for example. the handstream is literally just stepped to the singing. you can now pmuch take any random song and make it into a 120 difficulty chart just by going off the vague sounds it makes.

as a stepartist, what’s the point of even searching for a song to step? I remember searching for charts to step and listen to the song thinking “ooh this would make a good chart”, but now that makes no sense because you can make the same kind of chart with any song you choose.

[loftyb]

“ as a stepartist, what’s the point of even searching for a song to step? I remember searching for charts to step and listen to the song thinking “ooh this would make a good chart”, but now that makes no sense because you can make the same kind of chart with any song you choose.”

You’re so close, buddy — just a few more thoughts and you’re there

[Wind0ze]

as someone that works in the laxative business it is in my best interest that people can't make dumps

[riktoi]

Originally Posted by klimtkiller

I’m not talking about patterning, although even in the case of patterning, it still had to be consistent and make coherent sense for the chart. the problem I have is allowing ghost notes, and charting to vague sounds which practically don’t exist.

Quite a big amount of dumps are easy to understand if you care to look at them. It's not any different from looking at a "technically" accurate chart. This has been pointed out in this thread multiple times.

Originally Posted by klimtkiller

take image material from fullereneshift for example. the handstream is literally just stepped to the singing. you can now pmuch take any random song and make it into a 120 difficulty chart just by going off the vague sounds it makes.

Is that a bad thing? Fullerene Shift is in no way an official release, and hence does not have to meet standards. You can judge it however you like, but ultimately it will fall to deaf ears. The least you can do is try to understand why it is charted that way.

Originally Posted by klimtkiller

as a stepartist, what’s the point of even searching for a song to step? I remember searching for charts to step and listen to the song thinking “ooh this would make a good chart”, but now that makes no sense because you can make the same kind of chart with any song you choose.

Good. Searching for songs just to fit an arbitrary criteria of chartability takes an immense amount of time! Just being able to pick a song you like and dumping it feels great. It's purely a plus that a bigger variety of music can be (and will be) charted this way, even if you personally didn't like it. After all, nothing stops you from continuing your own way.