Race and the WORD

[talisman]

rather than muck around in the gbin I figure I'll post my thoughts here.

-A forum is a public place, meaning it's perfectly plausible that someone might take offense to any mention of the word in any context, which might result in that person disliking the site or leaving or whatever. This is bad. Site expansion and image is good, at least from the site's perspective.

-The solution isn't dilution. Using the word more does not make it less offensive to those who are offended by it, and there will always be those that are offended by it.

-Obviously not everyone who uses it is racist, or uses it in a racist way. That doesn't mean that those people aren't perpetuating an easily avoidable racist label (try substituting "dick" or something...) or not offending people. Just because you don't mean offense doesn't mean you don't cause it. And even if your intended audience doesn't really take offense, it doesn't mean that someone in the unintended audience doesn't.

-No I don't think it should be taken out of Huckleberry Finn or anything.

-Yes blacks often refer to each other with it. Does it have a different meaning then? Of course. Does that make it any less unfortunate as an epithet? No. See Richard Pryor, upon his return from Africa. Is this a double standard? Obviously.

-So why not the word gay then? I don't know. Could it be a bannable offense as well? I'm sure it could, but it's not right now. So goes society.

On that note,

-Moderation is definitionally arbitrary. Obviously I can't speak for the mods, but I assume they work out for themselves how to balance between giving the community freedom and maintaining the image of the site.

-If something wasn't enforced before, who cares if it's enforced now? Should it have been enforced earlier? Maybe. It doesn't matter. Rules change.

[T0rajir0u]

As far as this particular situation goes, the specific decision to avoid unnecessary offending was probably the right one in general. It's just not practical to pretend like, because people don't mean it seriously, it won't end up offending anybody. That's just not true.

But I mean, come on. It's the garbage bin. If we're not supposed to offend people, what the fuck is there to do?

I wouldn't even object to the decision if it was any other forum.

If you guys want to discuss the implications of using the n-word in a public setting, or debate whether or not the word itself is inherently racist, go for it. That's what this forum is about.

If you guys want to debate forum rules or gbin rules or whether or not bans were warranted then the best thing to do is take that up in private messages with staff. Grousing about the decisions of staff is offtopic in any forum.

That being said, carry on.

[sertman]

I personally don't use the word, but if I were to use it in the context that most people here intend to use it in (a joking way) , I would make damn sure that the person that I'm saying it to isn't black, and if they were, they know I'm just kidding around. If there was any doubt in my mind that the person it was directed at would take it the wrong way, I wouldn't say it.

However, the use of the word HAS been diluted. Gone are the days of widespread open racism, where the KKK was in power and the word was highly used as a racial epithet. Although racism is still a problem, and stereotypes still exist, with the popularity of shows like Chappelle's Show, where you see black people using this word that's so "deeply rooted in racism" freely, and getting laughs, while using racial slurs for and making fun of white people, it begs the question: just how seriously do black people take the word nowadays?

I think you'd be suprised at the answer. Although I am not black myself, I have been in a ton of situations where I've been playing with black people on Xbox Live and people start being racist towards them. Guess who's offended the most? White people. What usually happens is the white person will kick them out of the server, and be like "Sorry, dude" to the black guy, whowill say "It didn't really bother me." And that wasn't just the N-word... i've heard some **** on there that took me aback. Draw your own conclusions from this, but I've come to the conclusion that a lot of the black people who post on internet forums or play games with headsets don't really care, because they've heard it all before. And when it's quite obvious that someone's joking, especially if they're talking to whiteboy or something, then I don't see the harm. It's not racism.

[talisman]

And even if your intended audience doesn't really take offense, it doesn't mean that someone in the unintended audience doesn't.

...

[esupin]

Originally Posted by talisman

That doesn't mean that those people aren't perpetuating an easily avoidable racist label (try substituting "dick" or something...) or not offending people. Just because you don't mean offense doesn't mean you don't cause it. And even if your intended audience doesn't really take offense, it doesn't mean that someone in the unintended audience doesn't.

The sad thing is, I'm not sure everyone here cares if others take offense. Some people are under the impression that just because they're joking, it's OK to say stuff you'd get kicked out of school for. Maybe on the internet where no one can stop you, but I don't find it funny there, either.

I'm not sure I'd laugh if my best friend used the 'word' just as a blatant joke, even. Same thing with swears and other racial slurs. It might have been funny to say them in 7th grade, but I think (most) people here are more mature than middle schoolers. I might have laughed if someone dropped the f-bomb 4 years ago, but we're not in middle school now.

If it makes you feel better to swear and make vulgar jokes in the g-bin in order to get a laugh, I don't care. I don't find it funny, but I know other people do.

[sertman]

Originally Posted by talisman

...

To tell you the truth, this debate really shouldn't be about whether or not it's offensive. The debate should be about this question:

DOES THE USE OF THE N-WORD ALWAYS CONSTITUTE RACISM?

Rairai and AP got banned for what Chardish determined to be racism. Look at the sticky. Racism = 2 week ban. Was AP really being racist when he said "shalaka laka laka laka *****" or w/e he said?

[talisman]

Of course it should be about whether or not it's offensive. Many do find it offensive. Why do they find it offensive? Because it's a racist epithet. It has and will always have that connotation, no matter what context or what intentions the speaker has.

The word is racist, and using it, even casually and without "meaning" it, is simply perpetuating its existence and reaffirming its racist roots.

Is it racism in the sense of "I'm putting down or calling attention to the difference between the races"? Probably not. But it IS perpetuating a racial epithet, it IS offensive, and for that reason I see no reason why it shouldn't be a bannable offense.

[sertman]

Originally Posted by talisman

Of course it should be about whether or not it's offensive. Many do find it offensive. Why do they find it offensive? Because it's a racist epithet. It has and will always have that connotation, no matter what context or what intentions the speaker has.

So words like "******", which was previously used exclusively as a homophobic slur, will always have a homophobic connotation?

The word is racist, and using it, even casually and without "meaning" it, is simply perpetuating its existence and reaffirming its racist roots.

All you have to do is open a history book to "perpetuate it's existence." And when black people say it freely, are they reaffirming its racist roots?

Is it racism in the sense of "I'm putting down or calling attention to the difference between the races"? Probably not. But it IS perpetuating a racial epithet, it IS offensive, and for that reason I see no reason why it shouldn't be a bannable offense.

Uh that's the DEFINITION OF RACISM. It's the social discrimination/prejudice based on someones race.

It isn't "racism in the sense of". That's what racism IS. And you're right, it's probably not racism.

Thank you.

[talisman]

So words like "******", which was previously used exclusively as a homophobic slur, will always have a homophobic connotation?

Yes. and

So why not the word gay then? I don't know. Could it be a bannable offense as well? I'm sure it could, but it's not right now. So goes society.

All you have to do is open a history book to "perpetuate it's existence."

Most history books I know don't have that word in them.

And when black people say it freely, are they reaffirming its racist roots?

Yes. also

Yes blacks often refer to each other with it. Does it have a different meaning then? Of course. Does that make it any less unfortunate as an epithet? No. See Richard Pryor, upon his return from Africa. Is this a double standard? Obviously.

Uh that's the DEFINITION OF RACISM. It's the social discrimination/prejudice based on someones race.

It isn't "racism in the sense of". That's what racism IS. And you're right, it's probably not racism.

Thank you.

You're missing the big picture. You're caught up in this "oh they were banned for racism but they weren't being racist."

A) Use of the word is inherently racist.
B) Even if that doesn't constitute racism, they still deserve to be banned for use of a word which can be that offensive.
C) Therefore what I'm saying isn't "oh chardish should have been more clear on what he meant by racism" or anything like that... Who cares. They deserve to be banned anyway, even if the stated reason wasn't right (although I think it probably was).

What's shocking to me is that people even think that it's not a big deal to use the word in a joking context.

[Velious]

for anyone that didn't know, ap was merely quoting smudge

[Afrobean]

Talisman, the problem is with how Chardish did it.

If he had simply said "you can't use ****** in a joking way no matter what because some people may be offended" it would have gone down a lot better than banning people for being "racist".

And how is calling a white person a ****** going to perpetuate it's racist roots? If anything, it'd help to break them because people who are unfamiliar with the word won't know of it's racist meanings and would instead use it as a general insult like "***" (ironic, but I won't even get into that since sert's already beaten that horse to death) or "asshole." When a person (LOL PUN) removes racial connections in their use of the word, it can bring others to do so as well, and eventually break the racial ties almost completely.

See: Clerks 2. There is an excellent scene in which Randal calls a customer a porchmonkey thinking it's just a general insult and not knowing that there may be a racial connection. After learning that it's a slur, he decides that he's going to take back the word and remove racial connections and in turn begins calling everyone a porchmonkey (ironically, everyone but black people). This is basically what I see going on here. Why is there a problem with allowing people to change the meaning of a potentially highly offensive word to that of a mere general insult? That would bring us one step closer to the world (or at least the civilized world) being color-blind. And sure, there are some in the older generation that may remain offended by it, but they'll be gone before too long

Also, the context of a white person being called a ****** is monumentally funny, as long as it's unexpected.

I'll give it to you that what some of these users have done in the garbage bin isn't what I've described and instead just use of the word for shock value. That's not what I'm backing here. I'm backing the use of the word in ways which it is not expected to be used.

[Skikamukazi]

Originally Posted by talisman

What's shocking to me is that people even think that it's not a big deal to use the word in a joking context.

I like to keep it simple and think that it's only racist if you mean it to be racist. If some guy takes it the wrong way whatever. I'll probably never see him again and I don't know him so I don't care.

However, I only apply this rule to real life, where only the people you talk to can hear your words. I honestly don't care about any type of word. If people get offended by something on the internet then they should just exit the browser window and go to a Disneytoons chat room.

[talisman]

And how is calling a white person a ****** going to perpetuate it's racist roots?

It perpetuates the existence of the word itself, which in turn perpetuates the word's roots, since the word will always have those roots.

When a person (LOL PUN) removes racial connections in their use of the word, it can bring others to do so as well, and eventually break the racial ties almost completely.

Why dilute the meaning of the word when it's so much easier just to not use it? That's the best way to end its existence and its meanings... don't use it. Not for everyone to use it until it somehow magically loses its history, which I don't think it ever can.

Also, the context of a white person being called a ****** is monumentally funny, as long as it's unexpected.

This I just don't understand. I don't find that funny at all. That's the kind of joke that makes me cringe for society's sake.

If people get offended by something on the internet then they should just exit the browser window and go to a Disneytoons chat room.

Exactly... like I said in the beginning, if the goal is site growth and maintaining site image, then offending people into leaving isn't exactly the smartest policy.

[flamingspinach]

Talisman, I think your policy is a bit misguided. The meanings of words always change over time. Go take a look at a dictionary of etymology sometime - what you'll find can be quite fascinating. For example "****" once used to mean "to separate" (excrete, discrete, etc.). There is no word, no matter its history, that is immutable and forever tainted. In fact the correct way to remove the offensiveness from a word (i.e. remove its connotations) is indeed to make it more ubiquitous. Of course that won't dilute the meaning behind it, if such meaning is intended, but it WILL separate the hateful intent from the word itself. This has, as sertman pointed out, already happened to quite an extent in American society. Very soon (in a historical sense) nobody will care.

About humor - it's not funny because it's shocking, it's funny because it's such a ridiculous thing to say. The best insults have always been creative and totally unsuited or exaggerative (see Shakespearean insults for an obvious example).

-fs

[talisman]

It's not funny at all. I will never understand how it can be. Were none of you raised around black people?

And of course the meanings of words change. I already have acknowledged that. But, like I said earlier, why not just not say it? It's still far too much of a high-powered word, for me at least.

[Skikamukazi]

Originally Posted by talisman

It's not funny at all. I will never understand how it can be. Were none of you raised around black people?

And of course the meanings of words change. I already have acknowledged that. But, like I said earlier, why not just not say it? It's still far too much of a high-powered word, for me at least.

I was one of two white kids growing up in my neighborhood in California. The rest were black. The word is funny when used properly, I was raised with black people claiming me to be "they *****" and so I have grown accustomed to the word. They call me *****, I called them my *****s.

And it wasn't an up-class black neighborhood, it was a slum.

[ckj846]

I think that the "N-word" is really only labeled as bad because people are always telling others OH ITS A TABOO WORD. In reality, it isn't (if you look at the etymology of it as explained by earlier posters). If black people can call each other ******s but other races can't, that is racism in itself. I just can't see how it can be offensive to black people especially if they are calling each other ******s all the time, both at school, "on the streets", in music, and in the media. I mean, since I'm japanese I have to bring it up, the word "Jap" was a term used in the military more of a simplistic term for Japanese. It was used in the internment camps (that my grandparents went to) and it was really discriminatory in that sense. Do you see people placing a taboo on the word? No. Do you see Japanese people getting offended by it? Not unless it is an extreme racist remark which would probably offend anybody. My point being, there are words that have a similar racist use that aren't neccessarily considered bad. Like the word Jew, it was a word to signify people who were practicing the religion of Judaism and it was meant to degrade those people during WW2. It is still a term used today. Do we place a taboo on it like we do with ******? No. Words are words and I don't think there is a word that isn't tainted. My point is that, words always have their etymologys and their uses, so why should we make an exception for ****** and make it a "taboo" word? Sorry it is late at night and I have school tomorrow so I'm not thinking as clearly as I would be during the day. Sorry for spelling or anything because I wrote it out really fast.
O_o

[talisman]

I thought there was a taboo on "Jap"... at least I was taught never to use it.

[qualy]

My mom always used to say when I got in trouble for swearing at school, "If we used the word **** for a rose, wouldn't it still be a rose by any other name?" I think a lot of people make a really big deal about the "N-word" because it's really famous for how it was used back in the days of the Civil War and all that. Those times are over now... I'm not saying that we should be able to throw around racial slurs freely, but when we're at a point where black people don't even get offended by the word, I think if we use it in a non-racial context, generally people won't get offended. I mean, I've seen people post things on this website a lot worse than just saying "the n-word".

On another note, wouldn't it be fair that if we are going to ban "the n-word" that words like "cracker" "spic" "chink" "***" and my personal favorite since I hear it around me ALL THE TIME now, "gringo" should be banned too?

edit: lol dead horse