Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

[DossarLX ODI]

Since Legacy itself as a genre is supposed to archive how the oldest files looked like ingame, I’d like to give my experiences and input on it.

I encountered FFR back in 2005 which was actually not too long since the last blue note file. 2005 was only a year after the first colored file was put ingame (2004). The color converter still didn’t work properly back in this time period, because Balloon Fever had all pink notes, Crowdpleaser’s bursts and trills were a mess of red/yellow/etc., Grand Galop Chromatique had red note syndrome, and so on.

Shashakiro took the time to recolor Crowdpleaser and GGC from what I remember -- Grand Galop Chromatique definitely got a big fix because the original file had 37 two-frame minijack and jack placements while the current version ingame has no two-frame minijacks. I don't remember exactly when this happened, but when it did, I soon started to despise the annoying blue note colorings. Back in 2005 I didn't mind as much because there weren't many files back then (you don't even reach the 200th file until late 2006!) so it seemed normal.

The converter back in legacy times (2002-2004) also had issues; Revolutionary Etude's original file is different from the one in FFR. There was an error that converted [12] jumps into [14] jumps, so Revolutionary Etude's Anchor sections are not exactly the same. Synthlight's files were made from a .dwi recording program similar to CTRL+R in StepMania where the user taps and inserts notes into the file from whatever they pressed; needless to say, this made for plenty of offsync files. Other steppers used notepad such as Hyrogashi (who by the way did put 300 BPM 64th minijacks in Chrono Trigger on purpose).

The legacy genre is a great archive, but I got sick of legacy way back in the day. More files came in and the converters were getting fixed. FFR went through many changes. It's bad to keep legacy in the public ranks when the game has vastly improved. Of course there are files like Beethoven Virus that were way ahead of its time, but most of the files in legacy simply just are too random; they follow the erratic feel of ancient Konami DDR charts such as Make It Better.

I've taken the effort to AAA all legacy songs. It's certainly a beast to conquer, but it is better to leave legacy in token ranks so players can appreciate how much the game has changed over time. Legacy is an archive, not an inferior barrier to piss players off.

[HalfStep]

I say yes

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

It's certainly a beast to conquer, but it is better to leave legacy in token ranks so players can appreciate how much the game has changed over time.

Token ranks is not a place for us to dump this. Token ranks is a place for tokens. Stop using it as a place to dump the "trash."

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

Legacy is an archive, not an inferior barrier to piss players off.

It is an archive, so don't put it in any level ranks. Otherwise, it will always be more of a barrier to piss players off. Even then, if they can still be chosen in multiplayer, they still suit being a barrier more than an archive.

Granted, I also understand that is a bit of over-thinking it. Simply put, they need to not be in any level ranks, if our interest and reasoning is as an archive.

[TheSaxRunner05]

I guess the difference is that no one plays/cares for their token rank?

[mi40]

lackluster files that are completely offsync: move to token levelranks
files that are adequate: do not

[Mike Weedmark]

It should count. It's a different kind of skill.

But songs in the Revo//Crowdpleaser (<--actually not legacy, upon checking) category are another matter.

[Pseudo Enigma]

Legacy should just die. End of story.

however, shoving it into Legacy Ranks or some shit would be quite acceptable too.

Originally Posted by TheSaxRunner05

I guess the difference is that no one plays/cares for their token rank?

Maybe if this displayed on profiles or something, anywhere to remind you of your shame, people would care.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by TheSaxRunner05

I guess the difference is that no one plays/cares for their token rank?

Then let us just call it "FFR Level Rank Trash bin" rather than token ranks.

No this point is entirely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Pseudo Enigma

Legacy should just die. End of story.

This is the most viable option, because to be honest, most people don't wish to play the worst charts to ever be spewed forth.

However, if I recall correctly, this isn't an option.

As I said, if the purpose of this is to keep them as an archive, the best option is no level ranks.

[reuben_tate]

It feels wrong to just be throwing all the "trash" into token levelranks. I agree with Enigma, we should create a new levelranks category called Legacy Levelranks or something and stick it all in there.

@mike: yes, it does take skill to aaa those files. But a different type of skill. Since levelranks are a reflection of one's skill in the game, it'd make more sense to only include files that test the main skill of the game (i.e. hitting notes to the beat of the music). With something like Legacy Levelranks, you could actually get an accurate depiction of the amount of that "different skill" you are talking about as well.

[I like it]

they aren't token songs they shouldn't be in token level ranks

[TheSaxRunner05]

Originally Posted by I like it

they aren't token songs they shouldn't be in token level ranks

They would need their own ranks or not be counted at all in this hypothetical situation, yes.

The main point is whether or not they should be counted in the public ranks at all, that's where the discussion should be.

[Nullifidian]

Originally Posted by XelNya

Then let us just call it "FFR Level Rank Trash bin" rather than token ranks.

No this point is entirely irrelevant.

How is this point entirely irrelevant? Seems pretty relevant to me since the only reason people play most of the public files over and over again is because the public ranks are displayed on profiles. Token ranks are not. It seems a pretty big concern that if you put them in a "hidden" level rank that their amount of plays will drastically decrease as well because it doesn't really "matter".

Originally Posted by XelNya

This is the most viable option, because to be honest, most people don't wish to play the worst charts to ever be spewed forth.

However, if I recall correctly, this isn't an option.

As I said, if the purpose of this is to keep them as an archive, the best option is no level ranks.

How is that the most viable option? You don't like the files but others might for various reasons and not liking a file is not a good enough reason to cut them off entirely (Let's just destroy all of the historic artifacts we found cause they're just silly compared to nowadays technology, right?!). You spout some pseudo-intelligent bias and write it off as fact when all you talk about is -your- perception of the files and your personal agenda to get them removed instead of adding anything constructive. There are plenty of alternatives that are much less invasive, such as creating a legacy rank category. And I agree with I like it about not adding them to token ranks.

Unrelated to this topic but I'd also suggest making token ranks publically displayed because the only reason they're not played as often is because those ranks don't really "matter" except for tier points. One can still make a conscious decision to not go for these token ranks but displaying them publically gives people more of an incentive to improve them.

[Charu]

Just my two cents.

If you're going to move the Legacy songs so they don't effect level ranks, then please don't stash it away to the token ranks. Right now, it seems like we have a consensus going on that agrees to make everything that's hard/awkward/offsync/BNS to move it to tokens because then it wouldn't matter to play said charts.

I say if you're going to do that, then please at least make a v2/v3/vWhatever to those charts in question before considering. That a way when a player passes the newest version, they can, if they so choose, play an earlier version.

Boom, everyone happy.

[alloyus]

I'd be cool with something like a legacy ranks page

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by Charu

....then please at least make a v2/v3/vWhatever to those charts in question before considering. That a way when a player passes the newest version, they can, if they so choose, play an earlier version.

Boom, everyone happy.

^ This.

The ones that are kinda off-sync, seriously, Give them to me and I'll re-sync them, or add colors to them, whatever. I don't care. But those files are outdated, and shouldn't be in game (as they are right now).

Perhaps we can add a new engine for "Legacy" files only?

Completely removing them I feel like isn't the way to go, it destroys part of FFR's histroy.

[TC_Halogen]

.Spitfire.'s second point and Charu's point are things that should happen.

Honestly, I can't decide if I want Legacy to stay or go -- part of me wants to leave it for the hard work, but part of me wants to remove it from public ranks because newer players should not have to deal with those older charts when they are not relevant to today's standards.

[PaperclipGames]

I feel a bit strange about putting it in Token ranks since they aren't really tokens, plus, as mentioned before, using the Token levelranks as a dump for Legacy doesn't seem right.

It seems best to let the ranks at least save somewhere, maybe even in a seperate Legacy ranking, or simply not at all... although not knowing what your best recorded score is in a Legacy song can be quite annoying, I guess.

On the other hand, I'll already be more than happy enough to see them vanish from the public levelranks, so if the only way to realize this properly is to shove them to the Tokens ranks, then... so be it.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by _.Spitfire._

How is this point entirely irrelevant? Seems pretty relevant to me since the only reason people play most of the public files over and over again is because the public ranks are displayed on profiles. Token ranks are not. It seems a pretty big concern that if you put them in a "hidden" level rank that their amount of plays will drastically decrease as well because it doesn't really "matter".

You, have failed to detect sarcasm.

I say the point is irrelevant however because the idea being purposed is to move them there to keep them out of the public rank, because no one "cares" about this rank. While it is true most do not, that does not mean it is a place to dump simchart levelranks simply for that idea alone. Tokens are supposed to be a reward, lumping in charts there because they're seen as "trash" isn't a solution, in fact it only creates another problem.

Originally Posted by _.Spitfire._

How is that the most viable option? You don't like the files but others might for various reasons and not liking a file is not a good enough reason to cut them off entirely (Let's just destroy all of the historic artifacts we found cause they're just silly compared to nowadays technology, right?!).

It is the most viable because they're meant to be an archive. This means that they shouldn't matter and should be there entirely for you to enjoy at your viewing leisure. By adding a levelrank to it, you compulse some "completion" players to complete this "part" of the game. So the best option naturally is to make the charts irrelevant, and there if you wish to play them.

Originally Posted by _.Spitfire._

You spout some pseudo-intelligent bias and write it off as fact when all you talk about is -your- perception of the files and your personal agenda to get them removed instead of adding anything constructive. There are plenty of alternatives that are much less invasive, such as creating a legacy rank category. And I agree with I like it about not adding them to token ranks.

My perception of files had no relevance to the idea of removing the oldest 150 charts from ranks entirely. Most of the first 150 charts in the game, are legacy charts. The argument to remove them in the first place is that they aren't "good" charts. The other charts within the first 150, and other specifically mentioned charts, fit the same ideal, they're not synced, they have a background that affects reading, they have an "unreasonable" section and the like.

As to the pseudo-intelligent bias comment, I'll say this, if you actually knew anything about me, you'd know very well I tend to indicate my own biases when I think it interferes.

To show you an example, allow me to rephrase my post, but adding in my own bias, my own agenda and the like.

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

It's certainly a beast to conquer, but it is better to leave legacy in token ranks so players can appreciate how much the game has changed over time.

That is what it would look like to a degree if I was doing what you said. Stop trying to deviate the attention from the actual argument.

In short:

This solves all the problems, and keeps a lot of issues from spawning out of the ordeal as well. It works for everyone, not just me. It works for players who seek to "complete" the game, it works for those who focus on ranks, it works for the purpose of the OP of the thread, there isn't a reason to do it another way. Someone can bring one up other than the one I am about to address, then sure, we talk it out. That is how a discussion works is it not?

The only issue that spawns out of this approach is "what about to those who worked hard to AAA them? Does that mean their hard work was worthless?"

To that, I actually don't have a response other than sadly, these are the only people who have any negative thing to say as far as I can tell.

[Xiz]

Plan B: Make a contest. "FFR Restoration Project"

- Users pick a song, submit it back with the same steps as the original step artist intended.
- Sync it correctly, add colors when needed.
- Small judge team will look over the file.
- If accepted, credits / title / random reward here?

[Pseudo Enigma]

Originally Posted by xiz

plan b: Make a contest. "ffr restoration project"

- users pick a song, submit it back with the same steps as the original step artist intended.
- sync it correctly, add colors when needed.
- small judge team will look over the file.
- if accepted, credits / title / random reward here?

+1111111111111111

edit: and then throw the old files away. Yesssssss
no.
...I wish.