Atheism/Theism thread

[Senip]

the most annoying thing about these debates is you always get people who lord their X over you, regardless of whatever it is.

you get the super christians going "Well i'm going to HEAVEN so fu!"
and then you get the athiests bashing the unholy shit out of people because "they buy into the idea of eternal damnation."

I'm almost certain that Mother Theresa and many, many other people were not intimidated by the idea of burning in hell, but rather that they felt so purely about whatever they supported that they did the amazing things they did. just because you got threatened by it, doesn't mean it's the same thing for everyone.

[Choofers]

Everything is gold.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Senip

the most annoying thing about these debates is you always get people who lord their X over you, regardless of whatever it is.

you get the super christians going "Well i'm going to HEAVEN so fu!"
and then you get the athiests bashing the unholy shit out of people because "they buy into the idea of eternal damnation."

I'm almost certain that Mother Theresa and many, many other people were not intimidated by the idea of burning in hell, but rather that they felt so purely about whatever they supported that they did the amazing things they did. just because you got threatened by it, doesn't mean it's the same thing for everyone.

And if you think Mother Teresa wouldn't have been a good person, if it weren't for the Catholic Church teaching her how to act, I'm not sure what to say to you.

The only people who would behave poorly if it weren't for religion teaching them to act well are the ones who buy into the threat of punishment in the afterlife if they don't.

If you don't believe in an afterlife, or that you will be rewarded/punished in that afterlife, religion as a moral force doesn't do anything that can't be done secularly as well.

[Syhto]

She had a personal relationship with God.

[BahamutZER0]

Isn't everyone supposed to have a personal relationship with god?

[Senip]

Originally Posted by devonin

And if you think Mother Teresa wouldn't have been a good person, if it weren't for the Catholic Church teaching her how to act, I'm not sure what to say to you.

The only people who would behave poorly if it weren't for religion teaching them to act well are the ones who buy into the threat of punishment in the afterlife if they don't.

If you don't believe in an afterlife, or that you will be rewarded/punished in that afterlife, religion as a moral force doesn't do anything that can't be done secularly as well.

I realize that, but the thing is that if you throw out all or nothing phrases like that, then what are we supposed to think?

'oh look crazy athiest guy just bashin on Christianity' or 'crazy christian being christian lol what a ***'

[devonin]

I said exactly what I meant. You're supposed to think I meant exactly what I said, and then critically evaluate it and respond.

[adlp]

Originally Posted by devonin

Believing in a deity has been used as a justification for more immoral behaviour than enlightened self-interest

there are cases where this would be correct and cases where they are not correct

Originally Posted by devonin

And even the positive moral choices that people adopt because of religion aren't being done out of a sense of understood rightness, they are being done because they have been threatened with damnation if they don't follow the rules.

lol you might be pretty dense if you really think that. stay tuned for official diagnosis

Originally Posted by devonin

The only people who would behave poorly if it weren't for religion teaching them to act well are the ones who buy into the threat of punishment in the afterlife if they don't

yeah you're pretty dense sorry bub

[devonin]

Thanks for attacking my points and not me personally, adlp. It speaks to your maturity.

So how is that dense? Secular humanism is perfectly capable of suggesting courses of action that society generally deems "good" Things like not killing, not stealing, not assaulting people, things like showing respect to others, and their rights and agency.

These are all things that don't require religion to be modes of behavior you learn to adopt.

So anybody who is capable of being a "good" person can come to goodness through entirely secular means, they don't require God and the Bible to teach them that these are good actions.

And anybody who is NOT capable of coming to goodness on their own, pretty much by definition, need an outside influence to make them be good. And the ONLY outside influence that is granted by religion that is not granted via secular humanism is the promise of reward and threat of damnation in the afterlife.

[Reincarnate]

Mother Teresa was a pretty despicable person once you get around to reading about what she actually did

[Coolboyrulez0]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Mother Teresa was a pretty despicable person once you get around to reading about what she actually did

yup, she had a sort of suffering fetish to "become closer to god", and projected this upon others.

[goose_goldwing]

so, i believe in the supernatural spaghetti monster, so therefore he is my god. He is not any more godly then simple ghosts, who are also supernatural beings. All of us have GOD in it, and thus, GOD must be the most BASIC form of elemental/particle subunit. Therefore, no matter what you are, your most substantial and basic building block which forms life...is spaghetti and meat balls. You are all food in my eyes, and it makes me very hungry knowing how much yummy tamata sauce you possess. This means that I am also GOD, and I use my powers to put you all in my stomach, and then. . . .I eat myself.

Wrath of Spaghetti Gods ^

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by adlp

there are cases where this would be correct and cases where they are not correct

Not all distributions are built equally. i.e. this is a false equivalence. You'll find correct/incorrect cases on both sides, but not necessarily in equal number or magnitude.

Originally Posted by adlp

lol you might be pretty dense if you really think that. stay tuned for official diagnosis

Except he's right.

Even right here in this very thread (prime example being JJTrixX's recent posts), you've got people who say "If you're an atheist, you don't have any moral code / humans are incapable of morality without God."

And so if you, personally, agree that theists aren't being moral because the Bible tells them to (nevermind the fact that it explicitly says you go to hell otherwise), then the same applies to atheists.

People don't get their morality from the Bible. At the end of the day, we're all human, and anyone who claims to have heard God's demands is indistinguishable from someone who is just making things up (further substantiated by the odd notion that people who claim to hear God tend to align the motives with their own -- and how different people apparently hear God differently).

Watch:

[Choofers]

Anyone who believes you can't be moral without religion, I have a question:

If your god commanded you to kill someone with what you deemed a justifiable reason, would you do it?

[FFRN00B90210]

my ultimate frustration is the slow transition from theism to agnosticism or atheism (in the US especially). a god probably doesn't exist, and in the context of manmade religions, it certainly doesn't exist. it's upsetting this "debate" has to happen time and time again with the same arguments made, only for someone to waste their time combating it. i assume once older generations die out the process will accelerate. anyone reinforcing the idea that a god exists, at least within the context of our world religions, is doing the rest of the world great injustice. this country still votes people into office that believe in a god, that alone speaks volumes. pathetic.

edit: it's not even worth making this moral vs. immoral argument, it's stupid and wrong.

and for whatever else:

And even the positive moral choices that people adopt because of religion aren't being done out of a sense of understood rightness, they are being done because they have been threatened with damnation if they don't follow the rules."

okay, sure. this does not apply to everyone that is christian however, which is what adlp is likely arguing. a lot of religious people operate similarly to people that aren't religious. you'll find the dumber, and more extreme cases will adhere to something like this. it doesn't take away from the fact i think religion is stupid however.

Anyone who believes you can't be moral without religion, I have a question:

If your god commanded you to kill someone with what you deemed a justifiable reason, would you do it?

you already know you're going to get a dumb answer

edit: i'm also tired of all these formalities when arguing the existence of god. i.e. arguments have become very technical and content based, not concise and logical. people years ago that formed these religions have less insight than we do now about life in general - and we still have very little insight relative to what *could* be known. this idea that supernatural things occurred is nonsense. i've grown very abrasive when discussing religion with anyone because i'm tired of hearing and responding to the same shit. i long for a moment in the future where everyone looks back and laughs.

[adlp]

i believe people can have high morals without even being remotely religious, an argument against that is pretty dumb

Originally Posted by devonin

Thanks for attacking my points and not me personally, adlp. It speaks to your maturity.

im 13

[devonin]

Username:adlp
Location:UT
Age:20

HRMMMMMMMMMMMM

[Coolboyrulez0]

devonin gets trolled itt

[JJTrixX]

Originally Posted by devonin

Believing in a deity has been used as a justification for more immoral behaviour than enlightened self-interest ever did.

Summary List Of The Commandments Of Jesus Christ
I. The Universal Moral Law
A. The Law Of Love
"First, love God your Creator more than anything
else. Then, love all other people the same as you
love yourself."
B. The Ten Commandments
1. "Do not put anything ahead of God your Creator."
2. "Do not make or worship idols."
3. "Do not take the name of God in vain."
4. "Take one day of complete rest each week, in honor of God."
5. "Honor your father and your mother."
6. "Do not commit murder."
7. "Do not commit adultery."
8. "Do not steal."
9. "Do not tell lies against anyone."
10. "Do not covet other people's possessions."
C. The Golden Rule
"Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated."
II. The Other Commandments Of Jesus
1. "FORGIVE EVERYBODY OF ALL THEIR OFFENSES AGAINST YOU."
(Forgive, and be forgiven.)
2. "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN."
3. "ABIDE IN ME, AND LET ME ABIDE IN YOU."
4. "LET PEOPLE SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS." (Do not hide your light
under a basket.)
5. "END DISPUTES QUICKLY."
6. "WHATEVER CAUSES YOU TO SIN, GET RID OF IT."
7. "DO NOT SWEAR OATHS AT ALL."
8. "DO NOT RETURN OFFENSE FOR OFFENSE." (Turn the other cheek.)
9. "GIVE WHAT PEOPLE ASK OF YOU, AND GIVE MORE THAN IS REQUIRED."(Go the extra mile.)
10. "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES AND THOSE WHO WORK AGAINST YOU."
11. "GIVE TO THE POOR TO PLEASE GOD, NOT TO GAIN APPROVAL
FROM OTHER PEOPLE."
12. "PRAY PRIVATELY AND SIMPLY, NOT TO IMPRESS OTHER PEOPLE."
13. "MAKE YOUR PRAYERS BE LIKE THE LORD'S PRAYER."
14. "WHEN YOU FAST, DO IT SECRETLY, NOT FOR SHOW."
15. "STORE UP YOUR TREASURES IN HEAVEN, NOT ON EARTH."
16. "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT YOUR MATERIAL NEEDS."
17. "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE FUTURE."
18. "MAKE GOD YOUR HIGHEST PRIORITY, AND HE WILL TAKE CARE OF ALL YOUR NEEDS."
19. "DO NOT JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE." (Judge not, lest ye be judged.)
20. "DO NOT GIVE HOLY THINGS TO DOGS OR CAST YOUR PEARLS
BEFORE SWINE."
21. "ASK GOD FOR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO HAVE." (Seek, and ye shall find.)
22. "FEED THE HUNGRY, CLOTHE THE NAKED, SHELTER THE HOMELESS, COMFORT THOSE IN DISTRESS."
23. "FOLLOW THE NARROW PATH TO LIFE." (Enter by the narrow gate.)
24. "BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS."
25. "EXERCISE POWER OVER UNCLEAN SPIRITS."
26. "LOVE LITTLE CHILDREN, DO NOT DESPISE THEM."
27. "DO NOT TAKE THE TITLES 'MASTER' OR 'FATHER' FOR YOURSELF."
28. "RESOLVE DISPUTES IN AN ORDERLY WAY, LIKE THIS . . . "
29. "DO NOT OPPOSE OTHER BELIEVERS IN CHRIST WHO ARE NOT IN YOUR GROUP."
30. "HAVE TOTAL FAITH IN GOD FOR EVERYTHING."
31. "BE LIKE THE GOOD SAMARITAN." (Go, and do likewise.)
32. "LOVE OTHER PEOPLE AS I HAVE LOVED YOU"
33. "EAT BREAD AND DRINK WINE IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME."
34. "WASH ONE ANOTHER'S FEET."
35. "BE MERCIFUL."
36. "GO AND TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM."
37. "KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."
38. "BE PREPARED FOR YOUR MASTER TO RETURN."

Speak for yourself my naive friend. devonin, I ask of you to name but one of the teachings of Jesus Christ listed above in which you honestly consider "immoral behaviour".

I would expect such an intelligent atheist such as yourself to understand that surely there are people in this world that do not hold true to the moral teachings of God, but yet publicly boast about how much of a Christian/Judiast/Islamist they are. Most(not all) religions preach a "morally just" and "positive" message that is spiritually enlighteneing because it does not come from man, it comes from God.

When a member of the U.S. Senate takes a bribe of $6 million to vote on a bill against the peoples' interest, but for the profit of a fortune 500 company, the entire Legislative branch is not to blame. The greedy Senator who illegally took a bribe for his own selfish benefit is to blame.

When you shoot and kill an innocent man with a gun, the gun is not to blame. The person who shot and killed the innocent man is to blame.

When a man decides to ingest a gallon of Clorox bleach to end his life, the gallon of Clorox bleach is not to blame, but the man who made a choice to give up on life and (possibly) commit suicide is to blame.

Religion is not to blame, people who commit immoral acts(that usually contradict their religious beliefs) are to blame.

Something you and many others can learn is that it is OK not to know something. It's OK not to know everything. It is OK to make mistakes. You can admit not knowing by saying "I don't know" and it doesn't make you any less of a person. You can also make mistakes because EVERYONE makes mistakes without exception. The key is admitting when you've made them because when you do, you are realizing that you have made a mistake and you know that you shouldn't repeat it, for the benefit of yourself and for others. If you can't admit your mistakes, you just keep repeating them and the world does not become a better place because of it.

Your so-called "enlightened self-interest" is exactly what you say it is, "self-interest". I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding your position but I'd rather live in a world with "collective interest" where I can be amongst friends and family then live in a world where everyone is focused on their own personal "self-interest".

[devonin]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

Speak for yourself my naive friend. devonin, I ask of you to name but one of the teachings of Jesus Christ listed above in which you honestly consider "immoral behaviour".

You've listed a bunch of positive things, and said 'There, show me one of those that aren't positive' which is ridiculous, and unfalisifiable and has no place in CT. You want to see a teaching of Christ that I consider immoral?

Ephesians 6:5-6

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

There's one. It's even New Testament.

Your so-called "enlightened self-interest" is exactly what you say it is, "self-interest". I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding your position but I'd rather live in a world with "collective interest" where I can be amongst friends and family then live in a world where everyone is focused on their own personal "self-interest".

You don't understand my position. Enlightened Self-Interest is a 'thing' not just a couple words strung together. The 'Enlightened' part is the part you aren't including in your condemnation of my position. Enlightened Self-Interest has no problem with your collective interest, that's basically what it is: If you acted from pure self-interest in isolation, decision to decision without considering the long-term consequences, you would swiftly find yourself in a very poor position indeed.

Part of Enlightened Self Interest includes making selfless sacrifices yourself, because of the long term benefits of doing nice things for those you care about, and by doing nice things, encouraging people to be nice to you in turn. It is the secular version of 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'

Something you and many others can learn is that it is OK not to know something. It's OK not to know everything. It is OK to make mistakes.

There is a difference between 'it is okay to not know everything' and 'it is expected for you to accept that some things are UNKNOWABLE and also to believe them anyway.'

And secular humanism is far more forgiving of 'mistakes' than the church is. Even the worst damnations we can visit upon someone in their earthly self pales in comparison to an eternity.

I would expect such an intelligent atheist such as yourself

I'm not an atheist.