Acceptable Suicide?

[Bynary Fission]

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala

What if I find myself in a situation where I either can kill someone else to survive or let them have what I need?

Well...if that person has a future ahead of him, and you've gotten to live at least half of your life, let him live. Say, if you were 45 and the guy next to you was 21. You both were starving, and if you didn't eat soon you would die. If someone was to die, let him live. You got to live a good amount of your life, and it was time for you to go. But he didn't get that opportunity. He deserves to live and experience life. He deserves to marry, to experience love, to experience sadness and death, and to see so much. You have gotten to do all that, but that man didn't. Let him live, let him have a future. Then, even in death, you will have made so much of a difference. Who knows, that person could become the next great civil rights leader.

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala

Should I let my animal nature assert itself or rather abstain in order to keep from doing moral wrong?

Well...if you are deeply religious, then you feel the obligation that God does not want you to kill yourself. But otherwise, if certain death is imminent, then perhaps killing yourself would be the best option. But consider it carefully. You might be rescued at the last moment, a la Titanic survivors. But if you are suffering, and you have no chance to live (e.g The Jews in the death camps), then yes. Relieve your suffering, for a person should not have to endure the psychological torture of waiting for your death, and the physical torture of starvation, etc. This is one of the two exceptions I mentioned earlier on acceptable suicide.

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala

Obviously whoever survives in the end will be able to say that they were in the right, but is it morally acceptable? How can we choose who lives and who dies?

Like I stated earlier, the person who has the most of a future ahead of him would deserve to live. Do you know what happened when Mao Zedong came to power? He ordered that China's best and brightest slaughtered, to purge China of the 'old order'. This left the country in shambles. But those who would not have made any difference lived. Did it help? No. If you feel that you have nothing to live for, but your fellow man does, then it would be noble to sacrifice yourself for the greater good.

And concerning the ethics of suicide...if you are obligated to do it, by religion, your code of honor, or other such ethics, then you would probably do so. It is hard to say whether it is right or wrong. This is different from person to person. I don't perceive it as 'wrong', but I don't look at it in a positive light either. With the exceptions of some form of torture, and religion/codes of honor, then suicide is for the weak and the cowardly. Others would probably look down upon you if you committed suicide, thus, in a sense, making it "wrong". But it is up to you concerning the ethics of suicide. If it is wrong to you, don't do it. If not, then do so under the conditions you believe warrant suicide.


~Bynary Fission

[fuzzykoala]

Thanks man. That takes a weight off my shoulders. The only questions I have left are what is an acceptable level of consumption and where is the best place to spend my energy but I don't think those answers are so easy to come by. Thinking about this so much is starting to make me wonder why I'm so concerned with being moral in the first place. Reciprocity and hope I guess. Oh well.
Thanks again!

[Bynary Fission]

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala

Thanks man. That takes a weight off my shoulders. The only questions I have left are what is an acceptable level of consumption and where is the best place to spend my energy but I don't think those answers are so easy to come by. Thinking about this so much is starting to make me wonder why I'm so concerned with being moral in the first place. Reciprocity and hope I guess. Oh well.
Thanks again!

No problem. It's my pleasure to help solve issues you may have.

Well, consumption is inevitable. We live, therefore we consume to exist. But acceptable levels can vary. If you are a tree-hugging vegan hippie who is a senior member of PETA (No offense PETA members), then you'll be living in the forest. But other than that, it's really up to you to decide an acceptable level of resource consumption. If you consume a lot, help out. Plant some trees. Get a low-flush toilet. And recycle.

Personally, as long as you aren't wasteful, then you are consuming an acceptable amount of resources. After all, what isn't wasted is not depleted, and can be used by others who need it. If you really want to help, do what I mentioned previously, and find ways to conserve and recycle. With any luck, you'll almost break even. But don't feel guilty if you consume more than you think is acceptable, because we all have to consume resources to live. If you don't waste materials, then they will get time to replenish. Then, you will have broken even, and you will not have destroyed anything. Nature is built to take some pretty nasty stuff. Using a few sheets of paper, or taking a bath is fine. Just as long as you don't waste.


~Bynary Fission

EDIT: Being moral is fine. In fact, it can give you a reason to live, thus preventing suicide in the first place. Those who are moral can be a true blessing to those around you. They conserve, they are kind, and treat others with the respect they deserve. And that is a truly redeeming person, don't you think? Your morals are good and true, from what I see. Just don't think extremes, like if you kill yourself, you'll be helping others. Then you end up harming others.

P.S 100th post, wewt.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by Corbin Wells

You truly believe suicide has no effect on anyone else the person may have known or been close to?

It doesn't have to have such an effect.

Do you not see anything selfish with it, or do you not truly care about those you speak and converse with every day in your life?

This sentence presumes its own conclusion.

Did you even bother to take into consideration what it does to those closest to the person?

As does this one.

Did you even bother to think of what it might do to you if someone you were really close with committed this act, or do you not seem to care at all about anyone in your life?

You're bad at arguing

Originally Posted by ledwix

Suppose a family is raising a three-year old child who has decided not to live any longer because of trivial reasons. (like not getting to watch his favorite TV show) The family is looking forward to raising a successful, hardworking man. If suicide is always acceptable, then the kid presumably has the right to decide to die, even at age 3. Yet at his age, he has very few rights compared to adults. Why should he have the right to end his own life at that age when his understanding of life itself is so remedial? Wouldn't this child's suicide interfere with the rights of the parents to raise their child the way they want to?

The parents have no such right. The child has a right to end their life because, quite tritely, it's theirs.

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission

Excuse me, just because we have different opinions than you doesn't make us "worthless liberal scum".

Maybe it does to me!

That is a stupid, ignorant statement. After all, if we didn't agree with you, could we say you were a right-wing extremist zealot if you had conservative views we didn't agree with? I think not.

You think wrong then. A tongue in cheek insult tacked on to the end of a valid argument does not make the argument invalid.

And I disagree with your statement. Suicide does affect other people. If you killed yourself, would your family and friends be indifferent to your death?

How should I know? I addressed this in my initial post, by the way. It always amazes me how I do that, yet no one catches it.

Would people take it the same way if their favorite TV show got canceled?

Some would!

Suicide leaves deep scars in those who love you and embrace you.

Maybe they leave deep scars in themselves.

They would wonder where they went wrong, why you killed yourself, and wonder if it was somehow their fault.

And is wonder somehow beyond their control?

It is a person's choice, yes. But that doesn't mean it is without consequence.

The consequence would seem to be death. The consequence of death would seem to be to make individuals associated with the dead aware of the death. From there, things would seem to get less deterministic.

[Bynary Fission]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

It doesn't have to have such an effect.



This sentence presumes its own conclusion.



As does this one.



You're bad at arguing



The parents have no such right. The child has a right to end their life because, quite tritely, it's theirs.



Maybe it does to me!



You think wrong then. A tongue in cheek insult tacked on to the end of a valid argument does not make the argument invalid.



How should I know? I addressed this in my initial post, by the way. It always amazes me how I do that, yet no one catches it.



Some would!



Maybe they leave deep scars in themselves.



And is wonder somehow beyond their control?



The consequence would seem to be death. The consequence of death would seem to be to make individuals associated with the dead aware of the death. From there, things would seem to get less deterministic.

From what I'm getting, you are saying suicide has no consequences, and that if you wanna do it, do it, regardless of who it hurts. You also seem to say that people can't influence suicide, and that people can hurt whoever they ant through suicide. Frankly, you have some flawed reasoning.

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

You're bad at arguing

If you say people are bad at arguing when they rebut what you say, then you shouldn't be in the CT forum.


~Bynary Fission

[Revolversaid]

Well...to put it philosophically who are you trying to get acceptance from? Why should someones acceptance effect your own personal choice and control over your own life? If your suicide is acceptable to one person it may not be acceptable to another. Suicide is truly acceptable however if the person who engages in the act accepts it. After all suicide is one of the choices that does not requires anybody else's acceptance.

"The hour of departure has arrived, and we go our ways--I to die, and you to live. Which to the better fate is known only to God." Socrates

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission

From what I'm getting, you are saying suicide has no consequences, and that if you wanna do it, do it, regardless of who it hurts. You also seem to say that people can't influence suicide, and that people can hurt whoever they ant through suicide. Frankly, you have some flawed reasoning.

No, I'm saying this

"But Kilroy! It effects loved ones by making them sad!"

It's not the responsibility of any one party to predict the feelings of others. Furthermore, shouldn't they be presumed to have control over them? If a families sadness is a deterministic effect of someones suicide, then plausibly suicide is a deterministic effect of something else. So you either have a crime without a victim or a crime without a criminal.

If you say people are bad at arguing when they rebut what you say, then you shouldn't be in the CT forum.

The rebuttals given were "How do you account for that being false?" Those aren't actual rebuttals, because they presume their own conclusion.

[Tarrik]

From what i can read, most people are saying that suicide is selfish, it hurts the ones around you etc, etc. Well here's my opinion.

Suicide is ALWAYS acceptable. The people who actually kill themselves are not just "taking the easy way out" they are escaping their problems, usually these problems are big and are not small things like..Too much homework..no friends..you know, small things. These people who kill themselves actually have problems and for everyone to say its selfish and stuff don't know what the hell they're talking about. Me, i have a pretty severe case of depression, yes I've thought of killing myself, yes it's on my mind now..do i have problems? YES, not small ones either. I'm getting kicked out of home if i don't "get over it" parents don't care much about anything to do with me anymore, siblings couldn't give two ****'s, failed school, and pushed all my friends away..yeah i know stupid things..but think hard about all i've said. May not seem like much to you, but it's not happening to you, so think hard before your next post.

P.S I gave up on the FFR community, because i was actually going to go get help so i don't kill myself (thats directed to you Denovin, so don't just assume I'd come back if you don't know why I'm leaving).

And that everyone is what i think.

~Tarrik~

[[TeRa]]

I've considered suicide multiple times, after dropping out, and thinking of the future, I know mine's going to suck, and I don't see any reason to stick around, but I talk myself out of it within a week. I never really attempted suicide, yet at least.

I feel if you believe your life is horrible enough to the point where you dont want to live anymore, whatever. But as ledwix said, a 3 year old doing it due to not being able to watch TV, thats adds a challenege to this topic.

So, here is how I see it. As a teen, I think this is the age where most people consider suicide. I can't even think of anyone 12 and below considering it, and I people consider it around the older age's due to stress from work, or stress from not having a job and being a falure, such as the road I see myself going down. I can't explain how I feel on the topic of suicide to much, being I've considered it, but I know I can't push myself to ever do it, no matter how bad things are, and from thinking of where my future is going because I dropped out of school, gets me in that depressed state where I start to consider suicide. I don't see it really being other peoples business as to wether or not someone does commit suicide or not, but I guess it all depends on the situation, something silly such as a 3 year not being able to watch a TV is just a flat out stupid reason, but something such as a 20 year old that dropped out and is heading toward living on the streets with severe depression and is being rejected has a more understandable reason.

[tha Guardians]

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission

In most cases, suicide is for the weak. For example, if a junkie gets AIDS from using a tainted needle when getting a hit of smack, then it's his fault. If somebody embezzles people and steals, yet bad fortune befalls him and he goes broke, and possibly caught, it's his fault. Those who commit suicide are cowards. They cannot face up to what they have done, and want an easy way out. The world would be better off without them.

But there is an exception, at least in my eyes. Have you ever heard of Huntington's Disease? It is characterized by a slow slip into dementia, it causes speech impairments, and extreme, shooting pain all across the body constantly. You linger for 10-15 years before you finally die. I once saw a moving documentary on a mother who lost her sons and father to this disease. Her father died after 15 years of developing the disease. She killed two of her sons after they screamed and begged for mercy, for her to kill them after suffering for years with this disease. She eventually did it. It was ruled assisted suicide, and she got 5 years, but served a 1/3 of it. She was not looked upon as a monster for what she did, in fact it caused a stir, and people went outside the courthouse protesting her punishment.

To be honest, that is a fate worse than death. Somebody with such a disease would rather die than live, as characterized by what I just said. Somebody who wants to commit suicide is not a coward when such extreme circumstances surround the situation and the individual. Now Huntington's disease is not the only exception, but suffering to an extreme like that is torture to the person. If you were being tortured, would you want to live or die? Exactly my point.

Also, not to exclude an important facet: Ritualistic or religious suicide. People who do such an act, such as seppuku, don't do it out of cowardice or because they couldn't handle life. They do it for honor, or religious reasons, and those people are exonerated, and possibly looked upon as heroes when they die. Samurai who committed seppuku were freed of any dishonor they got upon losing a battle. If their daimyos died, they also committed seppuku.

So in both cases, I do not see a person killing themselves a coward. They died because it was their obligation (Though others may not agree with it, but if they must do so by their code of honor or religion, so be it). And for the first reason...it's hard to comment on that. I nor you will ever understand unless you or somebody close to us was tangled in such a sad state. But really, other than the aforementioned exceptions, suicide is for cowards. Even if they were family, it would be a dishonorable way to go, and they would not be remembered well, even if their death is sad. (Or at least I wouldn't remember them well, I cannot speak for others).

This is largely an opinion, so please don't take all of what I said in verbatim.


~Bynary Fission

Yes, but what if someone wishes not to live for reasons that are not their fault, or for carelessness. What if some teenage girl's parents beat her, and she's never once been happy in her life. Now would that be impatience or exhaustion?

Or what if someone never really cared about life? What if they saw it as a waste of time, and didn't think it was worth it? Then what would you thing?

[kommisar[os]]

it's your life. do what you want with it. suicide is just another choice you make weather it be for good reason or by stupidity. Nobody else can make that choice for you.

[funmonkey54]

I believe that this wrong under all circumstances. When you take your own life you cause pain and suffering to the people around you. this is a self-centered and terrible thing to do. I believe that there is love in everyone. Everyone has somebody that they love. This person will most likely be the most effected by suicide. would you want that person to go through such an immense amount of pain and anguish that they may even consider making the same choice.

There is help for anything that you go through and therefore no reason for this. for example. say you were just dumped. you think life is over and it will never change. you consider suicide. this is ridiculous. even though you are in pain and are suffering with what is happening at this very moment there are others who have been dumped that can help you deal with it. approach the people that you know have suffered from the loss of a loved one or a girlfriend. ask them how they managed to get through it. this is free guidance that will help you deal with the loss.

after you have finished finding out how to deal with it pick yourself up and find someone else.

I believe there is always another way. suicide is unacceptable.

[OnixRose]

I don't know if I should post here or not(I also didn't read the other posts) but, just as someone can basically make his or her self ill psychologically, keep in mind who ever it is controls his or her thoughts

[[TeRa]]

Originally Posted by OnixRose

I don't know if I should post here or not(I also didn't read the other posts) but, just as someone can basically make his or her self ill psychologically, keep in mind who ever it is controls his or her thoughts

People are not always in their right state of mind though, and do not always control their own mind pretty for the most part.

[arsonistsgetallthegirls]

I want to get back on topic for a second, because this bothered me when I reread this post.

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission

In most cases, suicide is for the weak.

It takes a hell of a lot of courage to kill yourself.
Dying by your own hand, to escape the plights of this world, despite how people say "suicide is punishable by eternal damnation" and "There is nothing on the other side" is showing some serious strength.

People who kill themselves are in my eyes, only a tad less courageous than people who run back in to burning buildings to save infants.

[arsonistsgetallthegirls]

Forgive the double post, this is a different topic.

Originally Posted by funmonkey54

I believe that this wrong under all circumstances. When you take your own life you cause pain and suffering to the people around you. this is a self-centered and terrible thing to do. I believe that there is love in everyone. Everyone has somebody that they love. This person will most likely be the most effected by suicide. would you want that person to go through such an immense amount of pain and anguish that they may even consider making the same choice.

I believe there is always another way. suicide is unacceptable.

What if there isn't another way?
What if you have agonizing pain due to a inoperable brain tumor (far stretch, I know), but the doctors say you still have 5 months to live? (assuming you aren't a vegetable)
Is it still necessary just to wait it out because suicide is unacceptable?

[devonin]

Is it still necessary just to wait it out because suicide is unacceptable?

What I'd want to say to people who lean towards "yes" would be that the reason Euthenasia has its own word, and isn't just called suicide is that it is generally understood that the circumstances are different enough that many people would want a way to accept one without tacitly accepting the other, thus the second term.

If we leave suicide as seperate and distinct from euthenasia, does that change anybody's mind who was defending the acceptability of suicide? Does it change the mind of anyone who wasn't defending it?

[tsugomaru]

Originally Posted by [TeRa]

People are not always in their right state of mind though, and do not always control their own mind pretty for the most part.

What would you say would be the "right state" of mind. People who conform to made up standards made by made up ideal people?

I personally think that people who decide to commit suicide have justified their reasons in ways that make sense to them, they may not make sense to everyone else, but that doesn't matter. People don't commit suicide and make sure everyone understands why he would do it.

~Tsugomaru

[devonin]

I personally think that people who decide to commit suicide have justified their reasons in ways that make sense to them, they may not make sense to everyone else, but that doesn't matter. People don't commit suicide and make sure everyone understands why he would do it.

But is it enough to justify your motives to only yourself? Someone who murders having completely justified the act in their own mind are still held accountable by the existing laws against murder, unless their reasoning happens to coincide with the accepted justifications (Self-defense etc)

[tsugomaru]

It would seem so. The ones who try to justify it to others are seeking for attention and have no intent to commit suicide if they get what they want.

~Tsugomaru