TWG Turbo VI - Postgame

[Precarious]

Wow, you guys finished this one in a hurry.

[FreezinIce]

Yeah that last part of the day was insane to watch unfold. Sunfan was in the zone, he switched off Lar and went after xel without missing a beat.

[Hakulyte]

If you're a wolf replacement and join a game in the middle of a day phase, are you allowed to go read the wolf chat even if you can't write in it?

That's by far the most logical thing I can think at that could have solved most of my issues with this game.

I could have left a lot of explanations about what I was planning to do and why etc.

[ShadoWolfe]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

If you're a wolf replacement and join a game in the middle of a day phase, are you allowed to go read the wolf chat even if you can't write in it?

That's by far the most logical thing I can think at that could have solved most of my issues with this game.

I could have left a lot of explanations about what I was planning to do and why etc.

Yes.

[inDheart]

Originally Posted by XelNya

I'm pretty sure I conceded beforee I got lynched.

semantics really ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i'll edit it though

[inDheart]

Originally Posted by Precarious

Wow, you guys finished this one in a hurry.

this one was actually longer time-wise than the previous turbo!

[inDheart]

Originally Posted by Pazzaz

Sorry for making it hard for you all. I probably won't play a turbo the next time I play. This schedule, waking up at 6:00 am every day, and being forced to use my phone really complicated things. Still, fun first game gg.

i talked to a few people and we might do a game with daytime phases (late morning/afternoon for USers, evening for europe) so keep an eye out for that, would love to see you in a game that's not in the middle of the night for you

your commitment to being around for ends of days was really cool given that time

as someone else said, the regular games also have longer phases, which would be easier to drop some thoughts in at your convenience

[thesunfan]

I don't think I was on point this game, I think I got there eventually, but this was not a good game for me, pretty average I'd say.

I get that my posts can be intimidating, and you might be worried about how to combat it, but when you have no other methods, just post some bullshit and hope it sticks.

I disagree that self-presing on a "stronger" town is stupid. I think you should always self-pres unless you're a jester or something.

I think Pazz's reads won the game more than mine did, he voted Haku and Xel on d1 and d2, and tried to vote Haku on d0, so I think if you're gonna say I was on point, he played strictly more accurately than I did.

[inDheart]

okay multiquoting so i don't make like a billion more posts

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

Also, because Shado posted 21 times at EoD and Haku only posted 20 with the fact that the players had to be split 4/5, this is our first example of Post Theory not being correct. You may now mock me.

Originally Posted by thesunfan

it was Pazz's vote on Xel that locked it up, really

pretty much this; because no other votes moved, xel would be forced to either make a better case for someone else (which would be late by that point) or roll the dice on kitb with a towny sunfan

Originally Posted by YoshL

tokzic bailed because he was a wolf, or because he's hasn't changed as always, and feels like signing up and not participating is ok

i was keeping an eye on him and dude didn't even come back on the site. i'd be worried if this is a pattern by now

Originally Posted by XelNya

Now if I wanted to summerize why I played so poorly this game I'm gonna chalk it up to two things.

1. Pacing. I've never played a turbo before and fuck is it a different expiriance. I'm also sick so me noticing I was replaced in was really late because I was waking up from like nyquil and shit. I could have done more that first day if that hadn't been the case. In fact, had I replaced in during day 0 it was totes a different ball game as I was home all day.
2. This post tilted me so hard:



Like I dunno how obvious it was to you greg but I literally had zero fucking clue how to deal with this post. Like I'm not even sure now.

It just got nasty quick. Greg was on fucking point this game it's fucking gross.

Also: Fuck post theory.

Also this coulda been a better game, sorry about that guys, really. Especially Haku x.x

it could've been a better hosted game too, i feel like i stuck you in a bad spot. i saw you online during early night 1 and should have mentioned something then

turbos are faaast and i was going to make another speed joke with the title, but The Sixth Turbo only comes around once

can we all agree that post theory is at best a tool? it keeps getting used like it's more than that and i don't think i would ever mention it in a serious read of someone, or in trying to find wolf teams - like even if it does bear itself out statistically over time, try to find better reasons plz



also, seer cover was a thing that happened! it had interesting results this game, too. town didn't have the greatest coverage of claims, because both juckter and MML checked a wolf haku, and not everyone laid cover. that pretty much let haku PoE seer down to sunfan vs. kayla vs. aryxi.

the thing is, though, due to the particular claims that were made, sunfan was able to tell that they'd give a wolf haku the most information. as he said, otherwise kayla would be really hard to pick out, in particular because she looked to have dropped cover by giving a serious read on juckter. not sure that haku read that post in the same way, though he did find aryxi's drop and switched his kill rather late on night 1.

this makes me wonder aloud about dropping cover in general, because in the cover strategy, everyone has the same soft claim. the feeling i get from this is rather than stay consistent with it, it's actually okay to "drop" it, because we know regardless that 8/9 of the claims are fake. so three people dropping their cover in this game didn't really surprise me that much, and given that the actual seer could be seen as having done that, i don't think doing so is necessarily town-clearing anymore. that said, this isn't necessarily a good idea to extend beyond this setup.

MVP sunfan for pushing on and pretty much solving the game even if he didn't think it was a good job on his part, honorable mention to Pazzaz for being awake, committing votes to both wolves and putting them in tight spots

e: i thiiiiiiink an optimal cover strategy for town would be something like forming a circular linked list, where all players both have a check and are checked by someone else, and the checks just form a long chain - that way wolves can PoE at most 4 of the checks. doing any better than that is probably up to lucky guessing by town

[juckter1]

Well, this game was pretty fun to play and spectate. D0 I was kind of forced to make a weak wote on Shado because I didn't want to abandon my check on Haku. D1 I did the thing with not wanting to lynch Haku because I wanted people to look at some other possibilities, and I felt that Haku would get lynched D2 if he didn't get lynched D1.

Other than that I felt decent this game, I didn't become amazingly active but I got to do way more realtime interacting than my previous games, so that was cool.

It was nice playing with all of you guys, thanks in particular to Haku and Shado for the fun times in "deadchat"

[R.E. Aryxi]

I'll do my best to keep my idiocy down to a minimum next game. Sorry.

[_Zenith_]

Okay I have a major problem with something that happened last game (and I yelled at Sunfan for it and it happened this game and he didn't even acknowledge it).

Originally Posted by Pazzaz

I agree with sunfan, Haku's reasons for his vote doesn't make sense. Lar has been acting weird but it seems to be for the good of the town.
So therefore I'll go with Hakulyte

Originally Posted by thesunfan

the tags are [twgv]name here[/twgv with a bracket at the end there

Originally Posted by inDheart

Votecount:

ShadoWolfe (3) - psychoangel691, R.E. Aryxi, juckter1
MixMasterLar (2) - thesunfan, Hakulyte
Hakulyte (2) - MixMasterLar, ShadoWolfe
not voting - Tokzic, Pazzaz

A new player that nobody actually told him how to vote properly in this game is one thing. Him getting the explanation right AT EoD (:00) is bullshit to start, and then his clear vote even though it isn't listed in the right format (seeing Sunfan's explanation here should've validated that it was a vote) wasn't actually counted which is also bullshit.

For the grand finale, because of this, there wasn't a KitB that could've influenced the game (especially where Haku was a wolf this game). Stop fucking with situations that have influences on the game; negative or positive, it's still a fucking influence. Sunfan did it last game with closing the thread at night which eliminates the possibility of someone posting during a night phase in a no-night-phase game which we've seen with Shadowolfe recently that can influence the game.

It's bullshit.
I don't like it.
Cut the shit out.

[thesunfan]

wow this is a lot to respond to

I don't think I deserve MVP, I think Pazz does, they played strictly better imo.

The thing with trying to optimize seer cover is that you're making it no longer natural, right? In order for it to succeed, the wolves have to not really be able to tell who the seer is, and for this to happen, each iteration of seer cover laid by town has to appear truly random. Making a link would ruin this.

The best way to optimize seer cover is to have everyone leave it and not drop it, really. Sometimes it will just work better than it will compared to other times. One thing I do want to say is that you don't HAVE to leave your seer cover at the start of the phase, you can leave it at the very end or somewhere inbetween.

@Zenith, you're right, and I will add the proper voting tags into the tl;dr version of the rules. If you have a better suggestion for this location, lmk.

I think locking threads at night, while it does alter the course of a game or what have you, can only have a positive effect, so again, I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

[inDheart]

Originally Posted by _Zenith_

Okay I have a major problem with something that happened last game (and I yelled at Sunfan for it and it happened this game and he didn't even acknowledge it).







A new player that nobody actually told him how to vote properly in this game is one thing. Him getting the explanation right AT EoD (:00) is bullshit to start, and then his clear vote even though it isn't listed in the right format (seeing Sunfan's explanation here should've validated that it was a vote) wasn't actually counted which is also bullshit.

For the grand finale, because of this, there wasn't a KitB that could've influenced the game (especially where Haku was a wolf this game). Stop fucking with situations that have influences on the game; negative or positive, it's still a fucking influence. Sunfan did it last game with closing the thread at night which eliminates the possibility of someone posting during a night phase in a no-night-phase game which we've seen with Shadowolfe recently that can influence the game.

It's bullshit.
I don't like it.
Cut the shit out.

ok, i acknowledge it

sunfan did notice in the game thread that it didn't get counted, and (obviously) i hadn't until he posted something like "oh it apparently didn't count". i didn't interpret his post as trying to fix the wrong tags, more like how to vote, which again shouldn't happen right at deadline

i just scoured the rules for if that was explained and it doesn't look like it is - it's more like twg forum oral tradition, and that's probably something we as a forum can do better on. i think it was roundbox's game that said only votes in the twgv tags would count, and that was good, but we need to be more in-your-face in general with essential info like this. on MU they put the "how to vote" blurb at the start of like every game. we could do that.

maybe it's clear to you, but it sure wasn't to me that it was meant as a vote at the time, because in this case it's not apparent unless you quote the post

locking the thread at night in general is a host decision that i don't think fucks with the game because it's equal opportunity fuckery, at least, though in the particular situation you mean, it did make a difference imo (he locked it after the modkill)

tl;dr i get it, this game's over, let's do better next time

[thesunfan]

you made the right call, the vote should not count unless it is in the proper tags.

If people think this should be added to the rules list, then it will.

[inDheart]

i'm at least in favor of "how to vote" being somewhere, even if the twgv tag alone isn't enforced (someone doing manual counts might take things in bold red, for instance, unless we also want to get everyone using the automated counter)

definitely put it in somewhere, in both versions of the rules, as it's a major mechanic of the game that needs to be obviated

i might start taking the step i've seen in a lot of the games on MU to also put the voting information in the OP if i'm hosting

e: oh okay, didn't see the posts in rules thread, will go there

[Hakulyte]

Well, since wolf chat didn't get posted, I guess I'll explain my NK and what I think overall.

Originally Posted by inDheart

she looked to have dropped cover by giving a serious read on juckter. not sure that haku read that post in the same way, though he did find aryxi's drop and switched his kill rather late on night 1.

Nah, I didn't see this at all. Juckter even brought it up later on and I still didn't see it even after having the post in my face.

Wolfchat was a mess of incomplete ideas from me because half of it was on paper and the other half was in my head. It was like:

"I think it's thesunfan" (lol tunneling/better fear kill him/paranoia etc.)

"I think it's thesunfan, psycho or R.E. Aryxi" (green check PoE) (Pazzaz was here too, but I discarded him due to not having a green check)

"I think it's R.E. Aryxi over psycho"

(he was the third green check PoE possibility, but his play made me read him as a potential Seer. It's like the 2nd hypocop game where he made a typo on his "if I am Seer post" and that sounded like feigning to not be Seer to me. Yeah, I'm that superstitious. It's also why I tried to bring up "did you ever roll wolf Aryxi? etc." I was Seer hunting him.)

"I also thought thesunfan was baiting" (that was based on how you changed how you played from the first half of D0 and EoD. It looked like you didn't fear getting overly town-read and that ticked me off. You saying "Kayla is town" without any form of hesitation at that point made me go "no way, this doesn't make sense unless he's protecting the Seer". That's kind of weak, but with the tinfoil of MML vs thesunfan and knowing that I tried to lynch you, it made more sense for me to leave you alone.)

I felt confident at that point and went to sleep with my NK left on R.E. Aryxi.

The day after, I woke up early, revisited EoD and realized he blown his cover and went like "What? I'm wrong and swapped to psycho 5min before the phase started.

...

I consider Pazzaz MVP in this game ironically because I didn't expect him to constantly vote perfectly. (I'm counting D0 as a Haku vote)

He never really posted anything that could have been a mistake from my point of view. I literally went from being "haha it's a newbie" to "huh, he's actually a serious threat, I shouldn't have messed around with him at EoD".

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by inDheart

it could've been a better hosted game too, i feel like i stuck you in a bad spot. i saw you online during early night 1 and should have mentioned something then

turbos are faaast and i was going to make another speed joke with the title, but The Sixth Turbo only comes around once

I think the hosting was fine. Sure getting with Haku before coming in would have been great but I think your choice on it is fine. It's all good for next time in the event it happens again XD

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by XelNya

I think the hosting was fine. Sure getting with Haku before coming in would have been great but I think your choice on it is fine. It's all good for next time in the event it happens again XD

I think the best play here was to foreseen the replacement and prepare in advance a course of action in wolfchat in hope that the replacement read it before/after reading the thread and taking any sort of stance.

I'm assuming replacements tend to happen after one full phase absence + half of another phase regardless of time control. In a perfect world, I should have predicted that you were going to appear in the game and left you as much as info as I can there.

I'm against the idea of discussing with you directly "on the spot" as you join the game because we're already mid-way into the day and if you knew exactly what I was thinking and where I was going at this point, it would be an unfair advantage imo.

I'm saying this because I think it's different from a normal game without replacements. It's like having a mini-night phase in the middle of the day.

[MixMasterLar]

Originally Posted by inDheart

can we all agree that post theory is at best a tool? it keeps getting used like it's more than that and i don't think i would ever mention it in a serious read of someone, or in trying to find wolf teams - like even if it does bear itself out statistically over time, try to find better reasons plz

No one disagrees with you on that, not even me. It's why there isn't an example of me voting for someone strictly because of Commentrics (As much as people like to pretend there is): It's a tool to lead me in the right direction whenever I'm stuck

Originally Posted by thesunfan

The best way to optimize seer cover is to have everyone leave it and not drop it, really.

I 100% agree with this, but when I saw Haku I had to make sure town was evaluating him as well because that entrance was a clear wolf-tell from him. While I was hesitant because he could have been doing a clean meta change (after the last game and what was said in deadchat I wouldn't doubt it) I believed then and still do that he needed to be called out.

I'm just glad it was right lol. I would feel like dogshit if he turned town especially after Pyscho got killed.