Homosexual Marriage

[Iamnotamule]

Originally Posted by devonin

And if you happen to not believe (As billions of people do not believe) that the bible is universal fact and law...what then?

Also...the united states was nowhere NEAR "Founded on Christianity" The seperation of church and state was one of the founding principles of America, not the complete subsuming the of the state by one particular church.

Not one of the founding principles of America.

It was actually very close to being and it is in fact founded on Christianity. When the First Americans Established America it was founded on christianity, and that particular religion is what brought it together. The fact that we had serveral presidents that were in my opinion, horrible, had allowed gay marrage and so and so, is wrong.

Where did you get your information, Wikipedia?

___
By the way this was my opinion, bible was fact. You cannot pick on me because of what I Posted. I simply posted what I thought, and what was fact, not what I think was fact.

+ edit +

The bible is fact. You cannot call it an opinion. The bible does say so.

+edit 2+
And it is evidence. Someone could have not made that up much less take up so much of their time writing false statements about a man that was true and that did die on a cross for our sins.

It is fact. That is someones opinion that the bible is not.

[devonin]

Alrighty...since you want to call our ability to think critically into question:

The bible is fact. You cannot call it an opinion. The bible does say so.

Originally Posted by The thread "Logical Fallacy and You!"

Petitio Principii or Begging the question - This is a common fallacy wherein your evidence in support of an argument presupposed that you have already accepted the argument, or requires that you have. Example: The case example of begging the question is arguing the validity of the bible using evidence contained within the bible. In order for the evidence to be acceptable, you have to have already concluded that the bible is valid.

And also:

Gays, please stop being in denial, and follow the path of God

Originally Posted by The thread "Logical Fallacy and You!"

Argumentum ad Baculum or Appeal to force - This fallacy is where you conclude that a premise is right/wrong because there is a threat of punishment to do otherwise. Example: Believe in God or you will go to hell.

And again:

The fact that we had serveral presidents that were in my opinion, horrible, had allowed gay marrage and so and so, is wrong.

Originally Posted by The thread "Logical Fallacy and You!"

Ad Antiquitatem or Appeal to Tradition - Presenting your view as correct because "It has always been this way" Example: The law has always said that marriage is between a man and a women, there's no reason to change it.

Where did you get your information, Wikipedia?

I got my knowledge of history, and how to carry out a proper argument from a half decade of university as a history and philosophy major, so I'd appreciate it if you called my qualifications into question in a more formal and reasonable manner, as people who've been trained in formal debate tend to take that kind of ad hominem attack seriously.

[Iamnotamule]

Originally Posted by devonin

Alrighty...since you want to call our ability to think critically into question:




And also:


And again:






I got my knowledge of history, and how to carry out a proper argument from a half decade of university as a history and philosophy major, so I'd appreciate it if you called my qualifications into question in a more formal and reasonable manner, as people who've been trained in formal debate tend to take that kind of ad hominem attack seriously.

I too, am a History major, and I majored at Yale Academy.

The Sentence " The Bible does say so" Was in reply to your quote on quote no "the bible says so".

No. Believe in god or you will go do hell? No. Commit sins and you will go to hell. I would suggest that you put some deep thought into this before you start ripping off quotes that do not pertain to this thread again.

[slipstrike0159]

Real quick, if the US wasnt based at least somewhat on christianity then you are saying that the religious extremists who were so devoted to their faith that they fled the motherland and created a new nation did not in any way use their faith as a basis for the country they founded. I always thought it was interesting how a good portion of the laws are almost directly rooted back to the ten commandments, coincidence maybe? Probably not considering the people who founded the country.

In any case, this (although somewhat related to homosexuality and its legality in the US) is kinda off topic and im suprised to see that people are still posting in this thread after my leave of absence.

[GuidoHunter]

Originally Posted by slipstrike0159

Real quick, if the US wasnt based at least somewhat on christianity then you are saying that the religious extremists who were so devoted to their faith that they fled the motherland and created a new nation did not in any way use their faith as a basis for the country they founded.

America's settlement (read: still under English rule) was based on religion, most specifically Christianity. Hell, it might not be appropriate to even call that America. It would be more appropriate to say that the British colonies were founded on religion, because...

When the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA was founded, the basis was NOT in religion. In fact, the founding fathers created the government such that it wouldn't have problems with religion like other European countries had.

I always thought it was interesting how a good portion of the laws are almost directly rooted back to the ten commandments, coincidence maybe?

Quite. Which laws can be related to the Ten Commandments? Don't murder? Don't [/i]steal[/i]. Those are completely intuitive and I guarantee every nation has laws against such, even if they're founded in Islam, paganism, or anything else. I find it much more interesting that the commandments that are heavily religion-based have NO analogous law in America. I can take the Lord's name in vain. I don't have to keep holy the Sabbath. I can have false gods before God. I don't have to honor my father and mother. Hell, I can bear false witness all over the place in a legal manner.

Nice to see how your argument destroys itself.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[slipstrike0159]

First off it wasnt an argument, it was a thought.
Besides, the founding of the country was still based of the religious ideals that all are created equal. Not everyone would agree that everyone is created equal because of their view on things. However, in christianity the ideal country would be one where everyone could be free. If it wasnt carefully thought out, the idea of a free country could have easily led on of them to say that discrimination is okay because the people choose who they do and do not like and act accordingly. I'm convinced that it would take some either take someone with a highly intellectual mind, considering the times, or someone who had religious motivation to come up with such a country (and from what i have been told, the founding fathers werent the most intelligent people at the time).

I also think that in order to balance some of the religious problems of said other countries, some ideals were leeched off of the self-governing religious organization rule even if they were or were not associated with them purely because it was convenient and it worked.

[GuidoHunter]

Originally Posted by slipstrike0159

Besides, the founding of the country was still based of the religious ideals that all are created equal.

Exsqueeze me? Are you suggesting that that can't be a secular thought? You're saying that it's innately religious, which it's not.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Iamnotamule

I would suggest that you put some deep thought into this before you start ripping off quotes that do not pertain to this thread again.

Ripping off quotes? From whom? And if you are trying to say that because the examples given in the description of the fallacy didn't pertain directly to your point...no you're right, the quote directly above the fallacy was the example pertaining directly to your point, because those points were in fact quoted directly from your posts.

The Sentence " The Bible does say so" Was in reply to your quote on quote no "the bible says so".

You said: "The bible is fact. You cannot call it an opinion." And I was telling you that when your only evidence that the bible is fact is that "The bible says it is" that such evidence is simply not valid, as it is begging the question. Also, I take your further responding to imply that you have removed your insistance that any further comments directed at you be routed through your lawyer? Because insisting that we are not allowed to respond directly to you, and then continuing to make points that want response is rather the height of poor form.

Moving right along:

As to Slipstrike's posts regarding the christian influences on the founding of the United States, I'll point out that the articles of confederation were passed in 1778, the constitution in 1787, and within 4 years, the bill of rights had been created which have as their -first- amendment the text

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It seems pretty clear to me that almost from the outset, a formal seperation of church and state was something the government wanted to make very clear.

[MRTL_mrclean17]

Quoted from:
http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/Obje...A/118/304/ART/ --

Marriage Rights and Benefits

Learn some of the legal and practical ways that getting married changes your life.
Whether or not you favor marriage as a social institution, there's no denying that it confers many rights, protections, and benefits -- both legal and practical. Some of these vary from state to state, but the list typically includes:
Tax Benefits

• Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
• Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

Estate Planning Benefits

• Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
• Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
• Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
• Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse’s behalf.

Government Benefits

• Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
• Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
• Receiving public assistance benefits.

Employment Benefits

• Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
• Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
• Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
• Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.

Medical Benefits

• Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
• Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.

Death Benefits

• Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
• Making burial or other final arrangements.

Family Benefits

• Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
• Applying for joint foster care rights.
• Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
• Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

Housing Benefits

• Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
• Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

Consumer Benefits

• Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
• Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
• Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

Other Legal Benefits and Protections

• Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
• Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
• Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
• Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
• Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
• Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

Note that if you are in a same-sex marriage in Massachusetts or a domestic partnership or civil union in any of the states that offer those relationship options, many of the benefits of marriage won't apply to you, because the federal government does not recognize these same-sex relationships. For example, you may not file joint federal income tax returns with your partner, even if your state allows you to file jointly. And other federal benefits, such as COBRA continuation insurance coverage, may not apply. Consult a lawyer with expertise in this area to learn more about the rights and benefits available to same-sex couples.

--End quote--

I thought I would posit some information related to the topic, if one person bothers to read it, I might sleep well tonight.

[ToshX]

Gays, please stop being in denial, and follow the path of God

Oh man, I just came in this thread, and after seeing that quote, I have to say, that's so unbelievably inaccurate. I was in denial of being bi for quite a few years, but being in denial of being straight? That's nonsense. That's like saying the love between two of the same gender is not "real" or "genuine" just because they are of the same gender.

[SaSSyBiiTcH]

My opinion on homosexual marriage is very simple...[VERY touchy topic btw]
But we are no one to judge anyone else. If your gay/bi/w/e. Awesome! Do YOU. It doesn't bother me & srsly shouldn't bother any1 else. If your going to bring the Bible in to it, Let God be the judge & not you.
xox
------------------

[supastarr123]

Originally Posted by Izzi

Because they dont have the opportunity to have a mother. A mother is where a child comes from and there is somewhat of a special connection between a female and her child.

i like the picture

[Lamoc]

You know what. I've had this for a long time. Just didn't come across my mind to ever post this. I think EVERYONE should watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsFxk...did%3D22867375

[devonin]

Didn't we say that our heartstrings were sufficiently plucked back on like, page 5?

[Lamoc]

everyone should watch it, thats all i'm saying.

[devonin]

Why? Homophobes aren't going to be convinced, and Non-Homophobes don't need to be convinced.

[lord_carbo]

Originally Posted by devonin

Alrighty...since you want to call our ability to think critically into question:




And also:


And again:






I got my knowledge of history, and how to carry out a proper argument from a half decade of university as a history and philosophy major, so I'd appreciate it if you called my qualifications into question in a more formal and reasonable manner, as people who've been trained in formal debate tend to take that kind of ad hominem attack seriously.

The last fallacy doesn't fit the argument.

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

HAHAHAHAHAHA

You know, a study was done recently on what is more comforting to a child undergoing a medical procedure, the presence of their mom or the availability of Video games. Guess which one provided the most comfort pretty much across the board? Guess which one showed no difference from the control group?

Yes, but those kids had moms.

[Lamoc]

Originally Posted by devonin

Why? Homophobes aren't going to be convinced, and Non-Homophobes don't need to be convinced.

i've seen that video change people. its a good video.

[devonin]

The last fallacy doesn't fit the argument.

Er...how not?

[Dolador]

Marriage is a ritual performed by christians, it came from christianity, its boundaries stay within christianity, in all terms, the government should really have no say in whether gay marriage can happen or not, its the churches decision, or should be, but the answer will still be NO!