Ingame Song Information

[One Winged Angel]

I didn't order the songs in terms of easiest to hardest under each difficulty number, they were just collectively grouped as that specific difficulty (in response to you asking things like why Epidermis is easier than Puzzle or Choprite)

As for everything else, lol again, at no point in time did I say the list was perfect (I referred to it as a frame to start with), and obviously everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but the fact that you're basically calling me retarded for having some songs ONE POINT OFF FROM WHERE YOU WOULD PUT THEM is pretty hilarious

p.s. I'd like to add that I strongly disagree with some of your corrections (not all of them), but stuff like 4CT being more difficult than October is lol (I believe even in the last official, October was the round song after 4CT, and people scored noticeably worse on it)

Please don't tell me the majority of your corrections were based on how well you could play the file, because if I were to do the same, stuff like Skeletor, FotBB, AIM, Of Course, Kyrie, and bmv would be thrown into my personal 78/79, and files like Mario Minor, Caprice, WT, and Dendrite v2 would be thrown in my 86/87, and I know for a fact that none of that is even remotely accurate as to what the true difficulties are

[rushyrulz]

stavie, I disagree with the placement of one song on your list, therefore your entire list is completely ridiculous and I have no idea how someone could possibly make such a novice mistake.
/logic

+ LMFAO! There's difficulty conflict WITHIN a difficulty WITHIN ANOTHER, more specific difficulty. I don't think the difficulty system will ever be fully 'bitching free.' Especially when someone is complaining about the placements of difficulties on a 1-100 scale within a single number rofl

[igotrhythm]

I think there's two problems going on here at once:

1) This is a relative difficulty scale, not an absolute one, therefore there's no need to have a few numbers in between vrofl and RATO.

2) No matter which way people slice it, there will always be those that take offense to the particulars by virtue of their own opinions, skill sets and experiences (and you know who you are ). Keep in mind that we're trying to place over 1000 songs into 100 difficulty categories, and you can plainly see that there's going to be some overlap. And when there's overlap, there will inevitably be subjectivity. Heck, I don't think we've even worked out what criteria we're judging the files on. At least AAA/FC difficulty can be objectively gauged as a function of number of AAAs/FC scores vs. number of people who've played the file, but even this seemingly objective figure can be deceptive in the case of highly popular but difficult songs. (I'm looking at you, CIA Rave. )

[rushyrulz]

As long as there's some kind of acknowledgement that each difficulty (except maybe like 1-3) can be split up into at least 3 difficulty groups, I'm fine.

But no srsly, there's no way we're going to get over 1000 public songs and have some hope of placing them correctly on a 1-13 scale, so as long as we're making some kind of progress, I'm happy to see it.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel

Please don't tell me the majority of your corrections were based on how well you could play the file, because if I were to do the same, stuff like Skeletor, FotBB, AIM, Of Course, Kyrie, and bmv would be thrown into my personal 78/79, and files like Mario Minor, Caprice, WT, and Dendrite v2 would be thrown in my 86/87, and I know for a fact that none of that is even remotely accurate as to what the true difficulties are

None were based on how well I can play the file, if so, I'd have felsvelka in like the 80 range (I think the file is really easy). I based this strictly off patterns. I have no idea how 4 chord could possibly be easier than October. October has 3-4 note bursts at moderate BPM until you get into the burst mania at the end, which doesn't last that long and is in 6 spots max. 4 Chord has intricate jumpstream at a faster BPM with 24 bursts literred throughout that lasts a long time and drains tons of stamina, not to mention the jacky trills and occasional polyrhythms. The beginning is also pretty rough with strange burst patterns and odd jump stream. It's a longer song, way more stamina draining, with equally rough patterns that require more stamina and overall, more speed (you can jump nearly all the bursts and AAA October once you figure out the patterns).

Originally Posted by qqwref

stavie, do you not understand the concept of opinions? It seems like every time someone disagrees with you, even on a completely minor point like one difficulty point on a 1-99 scale, you say their idea is "ridiculous" or "way too low/high" and that you "have no idea" how they had their opinion. I mean, come ON.

I agree with most of his opinions but somethings I thought were just downright crazy. This was before I read his was not based on his own ability, because for a while with a list like that I thought it was based less around patterns and more around what he was good and bad at. Most things I agree'd with, as you saw, I had like 10 issues out of around 100 songs, that's not bad. However, some I thought were like someone telling me Power is a 5 difficulty, I really thought some of these were that outlandish. Clockwork for example being that high, and World Tour 2004. World Tour is a VC for all extensive purposes, but it's sooo long and has enough technical 74-75 VC parts that it gets bumped up to mid FMO because of the consistent accuracy it requires. However pattern wise, it is in no way harder than say Kyrie or Perfect Cherry Storm.

[rushyrulz]

I will say that I agree with 4CT being more difficult than October. It's more technically difficult, plus it's much faster. October is just 32nd bursts over and over and over again and you get used to it.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

stavie, I disagree with the placement of one song on your list, therefore your entire list is completely ridiculous and I have no idea how someone could possibly make such a novice mistake.
/logic

I said I didn't disagree with the whole list, and I didn't know that they weren't ordered within their difficulties. If I had one problem with a placement, I'd say it and not care, but I found 10 that I had issues with, but not just issues, I felt they were extremely outlandish, as I said, I honestly saw pattern wise it's as if someone told me Power was a 4 or 5. And October could be harder than 4 Chord, I don't think it is pattern wise, I'm bad at both, but much better at 4 Chord, and regardless pattern wise, length, stamina, and accuracy I feel 4 Chord is just way harder. You have this chill 1:00 long intro to a 3 minute song, then you have two minutes of VC/low FMO stuff and at the last like, 40 seconds it gets really icky bursty out of nowhere, while 4 Chord from the start is high FMO, to low FMO, then a high mid-high FMO for a LONG time with some dense jumpstream with non-consistent patterns and 24th bursts and jack trills thrown in. October has 4 3 note 32nd bursts in a row at it's worst parts, and they can be delt with, 4 Chord you just have to take that stream head on, no exceptions, and you have to keep it up.

I just realized I triple posted last night with some nice replies to how much I actually thought OWA did a good job minus a few crazy choices, but I deleted it and just posted my lists and complaints in one post to simplify it, so I would keep from triple posting and having praise that was already stated. The list is a good grouping, and I didn't know that you didn't organize the difficulties within the groups, sorry. As I said, I had around only 10 problems out of about 100 songs, so of course I agree'd with most of your placements, I just moved a few around. Also, mine is sorted within difficulty so if people want to consolidate the lists and just work on specific song placements if they think either outline is fine. And no, there is no absolute difficulty and nothing will be perfect, or even objective, since all patterns and ratings are subjective, I know this be frequenting digitaldreamdoor all day every day. However, that doesn't mean we can't try to make a list that has the LEAST amount of complaints per person.

Originally Posted by igotrhythm

2) No matter which way people slice it, there will always be those that take offense to the particulars by virtue of their own opinions, skill sets and experiences (and you know who you are )

If you are talking to me, I take no offense to anything about this, these are just difficulties in a game, to think any of this personally bothers or offends me is just simply untrue, and I respect many peoples opinions, that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to say I strongly disagree with them, I'm not saying mine are any more right than anyone else's overall, I just feel in my opinion they are more accurate, not more correct mind you. If I think a movie suck, I'll say it sucks, doesn't mean it wounded my fragile, volatile soul.

[One Winged Angel]

I still respect stavie's opinions and think I should note that I devised the list trying to determine how certain patterns/length/tps during certain sections of files get in the way of AAA'ing the file, rather than FC'ing (which is why songs like Floating Hour were placed a tad bit higher than some might expect if they're ranking song difficulty by ability to FC)

I'll write a more detailed response when I get home from uni, because although I've laughed at some of stavie's opinions on the difficulty of some files (AcidAce lmao), he's got a pretty good idea of where things should be. I'd say about 80+% of the time when he's presented a problem with some sort of in-game song difficulty, I've agreed with him.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel

I still respect stavie's opinions and think I should note that I devised the list trying to determine how certain patterns/length/tps during certain sections of files get in the way of AAA'ing the file, rather than FC'ing (which is why songs like Floating Hour were placed a tad bit higher than some might expect if they're ranking song difficulty by ability to FC)

I'll write a more detailed response when I get home from uni, because although I've laughed at some of stavie's opinions on the difficulty of some files (AcidAce lmao), he's got a pretty good idea of where things should be. I'd say about 80+% of the time when he's presented a problem with some sort of in-game song difficulty, I've agreed with him.

I was really drunk when I played acidace and thought it was hard, I totally realize the file isn't that bad. When you're drunk everything seems so much harder so I am going to refrain from posting when I'm in that condition.

[justin_ator]

Good plan =] Lists are looking good, fellas

[stavie33]

I'd say we should rate them by FC'ability first, mainly because the game is so heavily combo based, then PA difficulty, then AAA difficulty (the idea that the difference between 20 goods and an SDG (PA) is much smaller than the difference between 2 goods and a AAA (AAA)). AAA difficulty, although it's what makes or brakes a song, is really only applicable to the people who are good enough to AAA those really high FMO's anyways, so it wouldn't be that good a difficulty rating for the general public, and the game is heavily combo based, if there is a huge combo breaking section, I'd say it's harder than a song where it's easy but you may pull a good or two, after all it's way easier to FC than to AAA so if you can't FC a song but can almost AAA another I'd say the one you can't FC is harder, at least at the time. Also, that doesn't deny that songs that are much harder to AAA are way higher, if there are parts that are that ridiculous to AAA, then those parts should be harder than parts that are moderately hard to combo anyways. It should be a mix of all three, I'd say all of them are even, with a slight emphasis on combo difficulty. This does help songs like Felsvelka and Floating Hour though, because those jacks and 32nd parts are major combo breakers for most inexperienced and most very good players. For the pro's, once the FC'ability is overcome, we realize how hard it is to AAA as well.

[Netjet!]

Should we not comprise some sort of "formula" that we can base all of the public songs off of? It would take into account note count, average TPS, pattern difficulty, number of AAA's FC's recorded, etc.

[bmah]

That has already been taken into consideration, and there were just too many variables and uncertainties to make that work.

[hi19hi19]

The file for Start Something still has incorrectly colored arrows. Is this an issue? lol

[One Winged Angel]

Epic, Visions, and a bunch of others do as well...don't know if anything's going to be done about that

[psychoangel691]

yea huge walls of text..... Don't feel like reading it fully but I'm going to make one simple point.

If you're going to complain about how someone placed a song or two when they're taking the time out to go through over 1000 songs to try to improve the system, then why don't you go through the 1000s of songs yourself and make it "perfect" The ones I see complain the most around here are the ones that don't bother to try to do anything.

[qqwref]

What do you mean by "try to do something"? From reading posts here I'd say most of the people who complain about song placements only have problems with a bunch of charts on the higher-level borders (C/VC, VC/FMO, FMO/FGO, FGO/FSO) and would be totally happy if those were moved. It looks like there are only a few people who care enough about the 1-99 system to get emotional over the exact placement of songs. Personally, I think difficulties are subjective enough that that level of precision is actually impossible, so we'd be better off using something like a 1-15 system anyway.

(So really, for most people, asking them to re-rank all the songs in FFR because they don't like a few placements would be like asking someone to totally rewrite an essay because there are a few grammar errors. Kinda overkill.)

[bmah]

I think the lower-level songs should be closely scrutinized as well. Most people will forget about them once they're AAAed.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by qqwref

What do you mean by "try to do something"? From reading posts here I'd say most of the people who complain about song placements only have problems with a bunch of charts on the higher-level borders (C/VC, VC/FMO, FMO/FGO, FGO/FSO) and would be totally happy if those were moved. It looks like there are only a few people who care enough about the 1-99 system to get emotional over the exact placement of songs. Personally, I think difficulties are subjective enough that that level of precision is actually impossible, so we'd be better off using something like a 1-15 system anyway.

(So really, for most people, asking them to re-rank all the songs in FFR because they don't like a few placements would be like asking someone to totally rewrite an essay because there are a few grammar errors. Kinda overkill.)

Apparently you missed the point that I was making. The point was everyone wants to complain but no one wants to step up and fix it.

And actually quite a few people care about other areas other than just the higher level songs. They just happen to pose the highest problem because there are so many of them in game.

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

yea huge walls of text..... Don't feel like reading it fully but I'm going to make one simple point.

If you're going to complain about how someone placed a song or two when they're taking the time out to go through over 1000 songs to try to improve the system, then why don't you go through the 1000s of songs yourself and make it "perfect" The ones I see complain the most around here are the ones that don't bother to try to do anything.

It's cool how you said you didn't read the walls of text and then you went on to criticize the content of them.

Basic summary of previous page: stavie thought there were some parts of owa's list that were misplaced and it was just a misunderstanding that the individual difficulties of the files within the groups weren't necessarily in order. Nobody complained about how someone placed a song aside from those who already placed the songs themselves. Even then it was just a simple misunderstanding which is now resolved.

Also if you were referring to me, I was just backing up OWA because stavie called his list ridiculous.

@stavie: FCability, PAability, and AAAability are all still very subjective and shouldn't be a basis for setting difficulties.