More Challenge Tokens? (Poll) / Token Rehaul Discussion

[rushyrulz]

I want to know if the community would be interested in more tokens similar to the support tokens (requirements to unlock can be found here) which would require completion of difficult challenges to unlock. New songs would be used as unlockables and the requirements to unlock them would be around the same difficulty as the 3 support tokens.

Please answer the poll and post reasons for your answer in this thread. I would like to get your opinion before we move forward with this.

Thanks!

EDIT: Staff is currently working on a rehaul for tokens deemed unreasonable or outdated. This includes all hidden tokens, since we have already learned that site updates happen and these tokens will inevitably get lost again if rehidden. Unfortunately, we can't go into too much detail in regards to the new requirements for these tokens since I am all too keen for the element of surprise, but we are definitely open to any suggestions you guys have regarding tokens or token requirements.

[Deadlyx39]

I'd support it. It helps give the community something fun to do. Especially for the older members that have most/all of the tokens done already.

[Hakulyte]

I think that rather than adding more tokens, we should reorganize what we already have first at least.

Let me overview quickly what I mean by that:

Tokens Compatibility with Engine:

~Absolute Zero~ - getting 0 (cant be done in R^3 because score don't record)
Slow Motion (Wipeout Pure Xtra) - (get mp level 10 token - no mp levels anymore)

^ These can all be done fairly well in Velocity Engine, but I feel like it's weird to make tokens forcing the use of a specific Engine.

Frozen Bond - "get 2 averages misses" makes little sense in an Engine where they no longer exists

^ That's just a weird one now that avmisses are gone.

Here We Go - 99% FC public songs may become arguably very hard after next hard song batch especially because raw scoring save over full combos. 95% might be more fair.
(That would be 1689/1777 FCs currently. Sounds low? I only have 1718 FCs now and I used to have every songs FC'd with combo scoring. I believe it's about equal if not slightly harder than the 99% FC requirement with combo scoring because you could just mash your way out of it before and now you can't unless your songs are unplayed and you never improve them with a better raw score later on which is counter-intuitive to how this game should be played.)

I also heard about the possibility of "losing a token" if the requirement was no longer met. I'm personally against this even if I can see why it would be unfair that someone could by example just mash FC all his unplayed songs to get Here We Go while another person can't get it because his personal bests are good scores with 1 miss.) Gotta draw a line here.

I also think every normal tokens involving finding a token on the site should be changed because some links are broken. I know they initially wanted to make a different type of token, but I don't know if that's still a good idea in 2016. They could be recycled into skill tokens as well.

Someone should remove this already:

There's also tokens like Exotica, Angelic Layer, Crow Song and OMGWTFtoken that are average-getting dependant which is a ton easier to do on Velocity Engine than R^3 for some reason. I'm not liking it, but I'm not going to argue much over that.

I also think Event Tokens could potentially have an alternative really hard requirement for unlucky players with Events.

We don't need "More Challenge Tokens", we need to do some clean up.

That's just a quick draft of ideas.

[_Zenith_]

I will indefinitely backup the idea for more tokens, especially challenging ones assuming that it would provide higher difficulty charts to be added into the game giving a much more diverse spread to the upper percentile of players.

Not only with that, lower ones should be added too so that the lower percentile of players gain rewards for their skill development with the game, and tokens have always provided that feel of reward after achieving their unlock requirements (OMGWTF is in mind here).

Unfortunately the one drawback I see is having the charts ready for a new token to unlock unless you already have a plan for that. Also it would be appropriate to fix the Token leaderboards as certain AAAs are not labeled as "Rank 1" as a non-token AAA would display.

@Haku, you can still gain MP levels playing in R^3 (I've gone from 19 to 21 in the last week) even though the page and display of MP levels is broken in the Universal MP lobby; you can still check your level via Legacy/Velocity lobby on R^3.

I agree that certain tokens need reorganization such as what you listed (Absolute Zero, Frozen Bond, etc) and HWG needs the 4% bump down because as more songs are added into the game, 99% with Raw Scoring is hardly feasible to obtain without having a good amount of skill in the game.

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

I think that rather than adding more tokens, we should reorganize what we already have first at least.

Let me overview quickly what I mean by that:

Tokens Compatibility with Engine:

~Absolute Zero~ - getting 0 (cant be done in R^3 because score don't record)
Slow Motion (Wipeout Pure Xtra) - (get mp level 10 token - no mp levels anymore)

^ These can all be done fairly well in Velocity Engine, but I feel like it's weird to make tokens forcing the use of a specific Engine.

Frozen Bond - "get 2 averages misses" makes little sense in an Engine where they no longer exists

^ That's just a weird one now that avmisses are gone.

Here We Go - 99% FC public songs may become arguably very hard after next hard song batch especially because raw scoring save over full combos. 95% might be more fair.
(That would be 1689/1777 FCs currently. Sounds low? I only have 1718 FCs now and I used to have every songs FC'd with combo scoring. I believe it's about equal if not slightly harder than the 99% FC requirement with combo scoring because you could just mash your way out of it before and now you can't unless your songs are unplayed and you never improve them with a better raw score later on which is counter-intuitive to how this game should be played.)

I also heard about the possibility of "losing a token" if the requirement was no longer met. I'm personally against this even if I can see why it would be unfair that someone could by example just mash FC all his unplayed songs to get Here We Go while another person can't get it because his personal bests are good scores with 1 miss.) Gotta draw a line here.

I also think every normal tokens involving finding a token on the site should be changed because some links are broken. I know they initially wanted to make a different type of token, but I don't know if that's still a good idea in 2016. They could be recycled into skill tokens as well.

Someone should remove this already:

There's also tokens like Exotica, Angelic Layer, Crow Song and OMGWTFtoken that are average-getting dependant which is a ton easier to do on Velocity Engine than R^3 for some reason. I'm not liking it, but I'm not going to argue much over that.

I also think Event Tokens could potentially have an alternative really hard requirement for unlucky players with Events.

We don't need "More Challenge Tokens", we need to do some clean up.

That's just a quick draft of ideas.

We are already working on an token overhaul as of this last Sunday. Max brought up the possibility of adding some new tokens as described in the OP, but I wanted to get community approval first (do people actually want these tokens?).

EDIT: and there's no way we're repurposing old tokens for these.

[Hakulyte]

Well, I don't see any problem with adding them then.

I guess we can't unvote a poll tho. lol

[sickufully]

Plain and simple, yes. I don't see any downside in having more tokens to collect.

With the hard batch not far away (I hope), I don't see why some of these new songs couldn't have tokens attached to them. There are another 1800+ songs that could still be used as I don't see an issue with using already in-game songs for more tokens. For unlockables, I'm not fussed if we unlock songs, site features, game features, credits, anything really. I just love collecting pixel art for my profile.

Depending on how many tokens you guys are considering adding, a small rework of the display of tokens on profiles could be made (for de-clutter & neatness purposes). For example, there could be a collapsible section of your profile that separates Tokens into different tiers or maybe just one collapsible section for the original 100 (and maybe a marker for if that person has unlocked Token Whore). Just a suggestion.

Although, touching on what Haku said, some tokens NEED to be updated as they are either unobtainable, engine-specific or just way too difficult (I've briefly spoken with Max about this through PM so I know there is some sort of overhaul in the works). I personally think these need to be updated first before any more tokens are even discussed. Once these have been adjusted to suit all engines and are all obtainable in some way, go nuts and add as many more tokens as possible.

Also, can we discuss an appropriate % for the Here We Go Token in this thread? The idea of changing it's reqs keep appearing but suggestions for it's new % are never really cemented.

[rushyrulz]

Here We Go will be adjusted to be more reasonable, no need to discuss it here.

And yes, priority 1 is getting normal tokens sorted out. I'm thinking pretty far into the future with these new challenge tokens.

[Pizza69]

More challenge tokens would be interesting and I'd enjoy it, but why new songs for the unlocks? I seem to recall some mention in the past about Touhou Judgement, Bedtime Story, and Bridgeport Run becoming new challenge/support tokens, but that was never followed through on and they still have no unlock requirement except through events (but they aren't labelled as event tokens.) Why not those, at least to kick it off?

[rushyrulz]

Those are staying event-exclusive along with FREEDOM DiVE and The Wises Were Wrong

[Rapta]

more tokens means more game

more game is yes

[XelNya]

On the condition absolutely zero of them are anti pa, sure.

[rushyrulz]

lol I promise

[One Winged Angel]

I don't

[igotrhythm]

Agreed with Haku. It's way harder to get your best score to be an FC now, and with songs harder than DP and RATO on the way...yeah. (I've played Is It on the batch engine. That is just straight up pain from start to finish.) Of course, this is assuming that the game only sets the song as being FCed if you get a new high score that's also an FC.

500 million in one day is hard, but doable. It's basically a practice run for those that are seriously thinking about going for vROFL, and many of the same strategies apply. It's just that with the lower point total, you have more time to take breaks or attend to unexpected interruptions. I tend to wimp out after 50mil, though.

Getting X av-misses is easily re-written as "get X averages and X misses". No issue there.

Short answer: No, the challenge tokens we have are difficult enough. In fact, the 50% AAA is what brought me back here, and oh boy do I have a ways to go to get that.

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by igotrhythm

Agreed with Haku.

Which time?

Originally Posted by igotrhythm

It's way harder to get your best score to be an FC now, and with songs harder than DP and RATO on the way...yeah. (I've played Is It on the batch engine. That is just straight up pain from start to finish.) Of course, this is assuming that the game only sets the song as being FCed if you get a new high score that's also an FC.

This will not be an issue anymore by the time any token requirement changes are made. I believe the devs are getting close to squashing this pesky bug.

Originally Posted by igotrhythm

Short answer: No, the challenge tokens we have are difficult enough. In fact, the 50% AAA is what brought me back here, and oh boy do I have a ways to go to get that.

Fair enough, but I think you just made a point for more challenging token requirements, seeing as one brought you back to FFR

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

Here We Go will be adjusted to be more reasonable, no need to discuss it here.

And yes, priority 1 is getting normal tokens sorted out. I'm thinking pretty far into the future with these new challenge tokens.

Also should side note.

Is token whore getting adjusted as well?

Because you're a goddamned whore if you get 100 of those darn things. Nostalgic "oh but other people had it harder" bull shit argument aside here.

[rushyrulz]

Token Whore will probably stay where it is, but nothing is final right now.

[master q60]

Adding longer challenge tokens, i.e. coactive would be great simply because whenever I personally would see that there was a new skill token, I would just whore the one song until I got it and leave for the day. Having longer ones that require different songs being played would allow for more diversity in what songs to play in order to reach the requirements.

Some over the top ones I can think of would be to Pass/FC/AAA X genre completely but that again would have the problem of if a new song is added, do you have to re-get it or once you got it it's yours forever

[rushyrulz]

In a situation like that, you would keep the token after new songs are added, just like people don't lose HWG when they drop below 99% FC