orlando shooting

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

This feels to me like it's a "gun control issue" in the same way 9/11 was an "airplane issue" or the Boston bombing was a "pressure cooker issue"

yeah, again, we changed airplane regulations and procedures following september 11th so you're arguing that we should change gun control regulations? cool. same page.

[Reincarnate]

One personal annoyance: I have so much that I want to say on this subject as a whole, but every time I start typing, it turns into a fucking essay that I know nobody is going to read.

I guess maybe that's part of the problem, though: Addressing all this stuff in detail is hard because the problem itself is large and complex.

[Red Blaster]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

I guess maybe that's part of the problem, though: Addressing all this stuff in detail is hard because the problem itself is large and complex.

You've hit the nail on the head.

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by Rojaf

yeah, again, we changed airplane regulations and procedures following september 11th so you're arguing that we should change gun control regulations? cool. same page.

Oh yeah, because the improved "airport security" measures have that amazing 95% failure rate and are therefore amazing at catching possible threats and are a great use of resources.

You're the one arguing that "some terrorists are Muslim" doesn't imply "all Muslims support terrorism" (which I agree with) then you turn around and completely fail to apply the same logic to "some ineffective airport security have been put in place" and the fact that does not imply "those measures are entirely responsible for a recent lack of major aviation terrorist attacks"

Glad to hear security theater has its supporters still.

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

Oh yeah, because the improved "airport security" measures have that amazing 95% failure rate and are therefore amazing at catching possible threats and are a great use of resources.

You're the one arguing that "some terrorists are Muslim" doesn't imply "all Muslims support terrorism" (which I agree with) then you turn around and completely fail to apply the same logic to "some ineffective airport security have been put in place" and the fact that does not imply "those measures are entirely responsible for a recent lack of major aviation terrorist attacks"

Glad to hear security theater has its supporters still.

yeah there's probably no correlation:

https://aviation-safety.net/statisti...ats.php?cat=H2

there's clearly a problem with TSA, but the numbers don't lie.

not saying that better gun control would fix everything, because it wouldnt, but it has to be better than what is happening now because right now this shit is broken.

[adlp]

islam is the problem

fojar your loonwatch stats stopped at 2005

it's hard for the US to be attacked in the first place. but look at islam in the rest of the world. pick any year

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rorist_attacks

also the gun control narrative is exaggerated

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/06...ttered-anyway/

[adlp]

Originally Posted by kommisar

yeah wouldn't want to get into the millions of gay people oppressed and killed in african countries because of gay laws pushed by american christians now would we

we could get into it. and we'd find out that there weren't millions being killed by christians. plus, even if you can find a statistic on homosexual deaths by african countries, which i hope you do, make sure it doesn't include all the muslim majority countries in africa that are swift to execute.

also afaik american christians dont push for anti homosexual laws anywhere in africa. if there were christian groups involved, it would probably be from the religious europeans.

[tosh]

Originally Posted by adlp

also afaik american christians dont push for anti homosexual laws anywhere in africa.

Take a second to look up Scott Lively and read how he pushed for Uganda's current anti-lgbt laws.

[kommisar]

^^^^


also I don't agree with any religion so that's a debate I shouldn't really get into anyways out of respect.


cities in the maritimes here held vigils and it was really crowded. super nice to see.

Halifax:


Moncton and Fredericton both had one two days ago as well

[scusethetude]

Yep, largest mass shooting in the city I live in . It was a rough weekend. I know a few people that had their friends die. I went to the vigil at UCF yesterday. It helped the healing process. I've been smiling at others more and have been getting more smiles back.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by Rojaf

https://aviation-safety.net/statisti...ats.php?cat=H2

there's clearly a problem with TSA, but the numbers don't lie.

Those numbers seem to apply worldwide, not just for the US.

To verify this you can cross-reference those sums with their own database here: https://aviation-safety.net/database....php?Event=SEH

I scraped the data (because their website doesn't really let you drill down on things). Here are the stats for casualties in a hijacking during years when at least one hijacking occurred (as of present-day) within the US category as per the website:

 
2003		0
2001		265
2000		0
1996		0
1994		0
1993		0
1992		0
1991		0
1990		0
1989		0
1987		0
1986		0
1985		0
1984		0
1983		1
1982		0
1981		1
1980		0
1979		0
1978		0
1977		1
1976		0
1975		1
1974		2
1973		0
1972		4
1971		2
1970		1
1969		0
1968		0
1965		0
1961		0
1960		1
1959		0
1958		0
1954		1

Total     280

You can add 43 to 1987 and 44 to 1964 if you want to include two instances where the deaths were caused by a disgruntled employee and a passenger, respectively (which according to this website don't count as hijackings, but I think they should be mentioned anyway):

https://aviation-safety.net/database....php?Event=SES

You can also add some 2000+ casualties to the year 2001 to include ground deaths during 9/11.

The overall picture is still the same, in my opinion: Casualties from airline hijackings are pretty rare in the US. 9/11 was just an extremely tragic outlier.

Even so, post-9/11, a lot of airlines started to reinforce cockpit doors and lock them in-flight, which has shown to be relatively successful in thwarting hijack attempts, in addition to the heightened awareness of passengers/crewmembers.

I'd say that's done a lot more for security than anything involving TSA procedures. On the whole, the TSA has been a huge waste of money -- a massive cost with little to show for it. They fail almost all of their security audits regularly.

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by adlp

islam is the problem

fojar your loonwatch stats stopped at 2005

it's hard for the US to be attacked in the first place. but look at islam in the rest of the world. pick any year

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rorist_attacks

also the gun control narrative is exaggerated

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/06...ttered-anyway/

oh i'm not arguing about assault rifles. any semi automatic is a semiautomatic.

doesnt matter if you call it a hunting rifle or an assault rifle.

https://youtu.be/RolEI5n4Jxs?t=335

it's about better background checks, maybe letting the CDC do studies about gun violence so that we can come up with informed solutions that can target problem areas without restricting lawful access to guns.

there are some very, very easy first steps. they may make it so that you have to wait an extra week to get your gun, but a small inconvenience is worth way, way less than human life.

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Those numbers seem to apply worldwide, not just for the US.

To verify this you can cross-reference those sums with their own database here: https://aviation-safety.net/database....php?Event=SEH

I scraped the data (because their website doesn't really let you drill down on things). Here are the stats for casualties in a hijacking during years when at least one hijacking occurred (as of present-day) within the US category as per the website:

 
2003		0
2001		265
2000		0
1996		0
1994		0
1993		0
1992		0
1991		0
1990		0
1989		0
1987		0
1986		0
1985		0
1984		0
1983		1
1982		0
1981		1
1980		0
1979		0
1978		0
1977		1
1976		0
1975		1
1974		2
1973		0
1972		4
1971		2
1970		1
1969		0
1968		0
1965		0
1961		0
1960		1
1959		0
1958		0
1954		1

Total     280

You can add 43 to 1987 and 44 to 1964 if you want to include two instances where the deaths were caused by a disgruntled employee and a passenger, respectively (which according to this website don't count as hijackings, but I think they should be mentioned anyway):

https://aviation-safety.net/database....php?Event=SES

The overall picture is still the same, in my opinion: Casualties from airline hijackings are pretty rare in the US. 9/11 was just an extremely tragic outlier.

Even so, post-9/11, a lot of airlines started to reinforce cockpit doors and lock them in-flight, which, has shown to be relatively successful in thwarting hijack attempts, in addition to the heightened awareness of passengers/crewmembers.

I'd say those two things have done a lot more for security than anything involving TSA procedures. On the whole, the TSA has been a huge waste of money -- a massive cost with little to show for it. They fail almost all of their security audits regularly.

yeah, fatalities are rare on hijackings, and 9/11 was definitely an outlier, but because of the post 9/11 reforms hijackings period have gone down, and the chance of another 9/11 has gone way down.

i'm not arguing that TSA is perfect or even good. what i am arguing is that in the case where airplanes were used for terror, we did something about it

one part worked, the other part is questionable. but we did something.

when it comes to guns used for terror bought freely and easily by terrorists on american soil we do nothing. absolutely nothing. how is the convenience of being able to walk out of a gun show with a gun worth more than human lives?

[Rojaf]

btw i'm a gun owner and while i like guns i like people being alive more, and any background check stuff would only make it take a few extra days for me to get any new gun. i can wait. it's not like the range is going anywhere.

[choof]

Originally Posted by adlp

islam is the problem

radical islam*
your judgment is ultimately clouded by your conservative views
i rly hate to say it like that but that's how it is

every religion in the history of humanity has had outliers, radicals that take their religion to the next level and start killing a bunch of people in the name of their god(s)

[choof]

Originally Posted by korny

Except it's totally an Islam issue. If hatred and death toward the infidel weren't some of the most intrinsic and eloquently written parts of the Quran I would agree with you, but they are, and while a majority of a religion consisting of 1.6 billion people interpret the scripture differently, a minority consisting of over a hundred million do and are incentivized and undeterred by anything by way of their 72 Virgin wife paradise.

oh

[choof]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Thoughts on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60&t=4m10s

not watching but that second post of mine is basically a start of a paradigm shift

[korny]

Originally Posted by choof

every religion in the history of humanity has had outliers, radicals that take their religion to the next level and start killing a bunch of people in the name of their god(s)

True, but the popular ones have had many centuries more to learn how to integrate into modern society than Islam and quite frankly, we can't sit around for a few more centuries for Islam to get its act together on the world stage. The implications are far too severe.

[kommisar]

I rather think of this as a mental health issue more than a religious one.


also
given the % of christians that push anti-gay bills still I disagree with religion entirely based on the forceful nature of their ideologies.


anyways, I genuinely hope the victims' families get some closure on this. idk how many mass shootings america needs before considering gun control seriously

[adlp]

Originally Posted by choof

not watching but that second post of mine is basically a start of a paradigm shift

yeah there's a lot of bad guys