Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

[Niala]

This is mostly just to find out what the opinion of the FFR community is. I really don't understand some things about the change, too. Why is it the people who have absolutely no problem AAAing these FMO's who all support the change, and who get to finally make the decision? Also, the difficulty of a file is fixed, and the skill of a player is not fixed, so why can we change the difficulty based on "These guys are getting too good for it?" It seems to me that the logic behind a lot of this is just "The community is getting better therefore the files are getting easier," which, really, is just a huge logic fail. Why should I have to work harder to get an FMO AAA than you did when you tried to get your first? It's not different now than it was then, only we have more people who are able to do it.

[T-Force]

Where's the screenies?

[Niala]

*Points out that SK61 aka T-Force read the question wrong and the poll is off by one vote*

[kjwkjw]

Originally Posted by Niala

Also, the difficulty of a file is fixed, and the skill of a player is not fixed, so why can we change the difficulty based on "These guys are getting too good for it?" It seems to me that the logic behind a lot of this is just "The community is getting better therefore the files are getting easier," which, really, is just a huge logic fail.

Agreed. And even though I've gone through a few little skill jumps after the downgrading, the VC's that were once FMO's still don't feel like the songs that were originally VC's.

[awein999]

with the addition of mirror, addtional speed mods, more time for the general community to get better, the general definition of what is for masters only or very challenging changes over time. CIA rave was once for masters only and that has no avmiss possibilities even when avmisses existed, so from what you say that should still be fmo but it clearly isn't. Where is the line drawn? It has to go somewhere.

[T-Force]

Originally Posted by Niala

*Points out that SK61 aka T-Force read the question wrong and the poll is off by one vote*

Bite me.

I evened my vote out, didn't I?

[AC1speakerbox]

I get the feeling this is completely about being mad just because you can't AAA an FMO.
It's okay, I'll never see that day either. =(

[T-Force]

Then why did kjw, who has AAA'd like 5 FMO's, vote for "no?"

[leonid]

I voted for "no."

It isn't like some arrows disappear from the chart as the time goes by..

This doesn't mean I don't agree with recent downgrades for some FMOs, though. Some of them were actually easier than some hard VCs.

This problem can be solved if we abandon 1~12 difficulty scale and use relative difficulties instead.

[kjwkjw]

Originally Posted by awein999

with the addition of mirror, addtional speed mods, more time for the general community to get better, the general definition of what is for masters only or very challenging changes over time. CIA rave was once for masters only and that has no avmiss possibilities even when avmisses existed, so from what you say that should still be fmo but it clearly isn't. Where is the line drawn? It has to go somewhere.

I really do think that mirror only affects the file enough to have an impact on its difficulty on a very small number of songs. Plus I consider downgrading a way to keep the number of people who can AAA a song of a certain difficuly fairly constant, which really isn't necessary. Sure, CIA Rave might've been an FMO in the past, and so were songs like Delirium, but the difficulty scale now is fairly stable... and I don't see a need to stuff the VC range with more songs when other songs that are under 11 aren't being downgraded. If we were to alter the line between VC and FMO to fit "today's standards," we might as well need a complete overhaul of all difficulties.

[T-Force]

That and you want a few more FMO AAA's, eh leonid =P

Lol, I kid, but Niala has some screenshots about an idea I had using the current system they have in the FFR Difficulties thread.

[Gigispackles]

Originally Posted by awein999

with the addition of mirror, addtional speed mods, more time for the general community to get better, the general definition of what is for masters only or very challenging changes over time. CIA rave was once for masters only and that has no avmiss possibilities even when avmisses existed, so from what you say that should still be fmo but it clearly isn't. Where is the line drawn? It has to go somewhere.

Okay. You do realize that it's been, what, 2 years since the whole avmiss thing has been fixed? So why only recently? And mirror does not add "skill". CIA Rave wasn't even that affected by the avmiss thing. Sprite made an Avmiss tourney and I tried the link he posted. I tried other songs than what he challenged us, and I performed similar to what I normally did on VC's and up. Except for stuff like Death Piano. I did the same on K1807 normally and with the avmiss, and my skill sucks too much to even say I could be good at it.

As for mirror, it was already possible. Rotate your monitor and I remember ther being an option where you could reverse the input of the arrows. I know not EVERYONE can rotate their monitor, but it was still possible. So why wasn't the difficulty changed when that idea was brought up?

I know I haven't been here for too long, but I'm getting tired of hearing the "avmiss" excuse. It's being used on almost everything when changing from a higher difficulty to a lower, aside from the songs made since.

From how I'm getting out of, people will think that if they change the difficulty to something lower, it's easier to FC/AAA. You can change the number, but the skill is THE.EXACT.SAME.FREAKING.THING. What's wrong with the number staying? Don't give an answer of "well why not?"

[Niala]

Originally Posted by leonid

i voted for "no."

+1

Originally Posted by leonid

this problem can be solved if we abandon 1~12 difficulty scale and use relative difficulties instead.

+2

[awein999]

what started to happen was that files were being released and people were complaining that it shouldn't be FMO because the general community is improving. And then we looked up other FMO's of similar difficulties and realized those should now be high VC too. I personally think the levels change corresponding to the number of people able to achieve or the levels have no meaning. It just makes sense to me. Silence is not fmo that's for sure and I have like 7 goods on it don't get me wrong

it's cool if you disagree with me I'm just putting out my opinion

[Niala]

Originally Posted by awein999

what started to happen was that files were being released and people were complaining that it shouldn't be FMO because the general community is improving. And then we looked up other FMO's of similar difficulties and realized those should now be high VC too. I personally think the levels change corresponding to the number of people able to achieve or the levels have no meaning. It just makes sense to me. Silence is not fmo that's for sure and I have like 7 goods on it don't get me wrong

Which, essentially, means that we rated songs too low, because the community was getting better. Those songs should have been given the same rating as song of their difficulty that were already there, not below them and had the FMO's that already existed dragged down with them.

EDIT: That's all this is, opinions. I'm glad we have people to bound opinions off of. If everybody came in and agreed this'd be boring. XP

[kjwkjw]

Originally Posted by Niala

the difficulty of a file is fixed

Originally Posted by leonid

It isn't like some arrows disappear from the chart as the time goes by..

Also consider whether or not songs that were originally labeled as high VC's fit in with these FMO's that have been downgraded to high VC's. I definitely don't think so, but if you do, those original high VC's would need to be downgraded to mid-VC's, and those mid-VC's to low-VC's, and so on, since people don't only get better at low-FMO's. They get better at multiple songs simultaneously as they accumulate skill.

@leonid: That relative difficulty idea is interesting. Could you go into a bit more detail about that?

[leonid]

@kjwkjw we are already using relative difficulty system. Check the "actual difficulty" thread.

[Gigispackles]

Originally Posted by awein999

what started to happen was that files were being released and people were complaining that it shouldn't be FMO because the general community is improving. And then we looked up other FMO's of similar difficulties and realized those should now be high VC too. I personally think the levels change corresponding to the number of people able to achieve or the levels have no meaning. It just makes sense to me. Silence is not fmo that's for sure and I have like 7 goods on it don't get me wrong

it's cool if you disagree with me I'm just putting out my opinion

Sorry, but I couldn't care less how you could do. It's called you improved since then and you will obviously be better. EVERYONE has improved since then. But consider that the arrows have NEVER left their position. And how come only recently you guys change the difficulty? Does it take that long to review a song? Answer that.

As for the files being released, they tend to have messed up audio or steps. And they tend to be on the difficult side. For how I see it, you guys compare the newer songs with the older ones. It's called raise the difficulty for the newer songs instead of making people feel less good at the other songs. Also, why do you guys only change the FMO/VC songs and not the songs say, level 7 and under? And the FGO's are untouched, except Death Piano.

Edit: I kinda sound rude, but I've been keeping this to myself ever since people started changing difficulty levels. And as my sig says "I'm bad at wording things". I tend to make myself look mean/angry when I'm not.

[Niala]

Originally Posted by leonid

@kjwkjw we are already using relative difficulty system. Check the "actual difficulty" thread.

This being the post T-Force was talking about. Although, personally, I'm not 100% sure if this would work. If you take an apple and cut it in to 99 pieces, you still have 99 pieces of an apple, if you get what I'm saying... =x

[T-Force]

Originally Posted by leonid

@kjwkjw we are already using relative difficulty system. Check the "actual difficulty" thread.

I had an idea with this.
Because the Actual Difficulties thread uses a 99-point scale, why not divvy it up into chunks of 5 and create 20 difficulties? Sure names may be a pain to figure out, but this way it creates a solid way to place songs into difficulties.



And I also agree with the people saying that the songs aren't losing arrows, so they shouldn't drop difficulties. You wanna drop a song, take out some of the patterns that made it that difficulty in the first place. Don't drop it because people are getting better. That's just a stupid reason to lower a difficulty.


EDIT: Wow, idea ninja'd by Niala XD