Is the concept of spacetime logical?

**Specforces** · 03-11-2004, 08:09 AM

Now I know science claims that time can speed up, and can produce mathematical equations to support this.

However, being more interested in in the subject from a philosophical stand point than science or maths, I have great trouble with the logic of 'time' speeding up. If it is proved philosophically illogical, does this then nullify scientific and mathematical proof? After all philosophy has pointed out how both science and mathematics rely on certain assumptions.

Anyway - here are some of my thoughts on the subject of time:

Time is a measurement system. It deals with short durations and long durations. A short duration is fast and long duration is slow. THe longer the duration of the measure the slower the measure. So surely it is the 'duration of the measure' that can be speedier or not, not 'time' itself as a measurement system.

Lets compare this with the measurement system of tempurature. You can have degrees of hot or cold within the tempurature system. But the Temperature 'system' itself cannot get hotter or colder. That is talking nonsense.

If I fly to another part of space where I age more quickly and the plants grow faster, and then fly back to earth and I look much older than you who have stayed on this planet, does that mean time went faster on the foreign planet. Or does it just mean the physical laws of nature move at a faster rate. After all, we all know there is a medical condition on earth where some people age very quickly. Was time faster on the other planet? Again. How could it have been; time itself can't speed up. Even if I perceived that time was going at a slow rate on the foreign planet doesn't necessarily mean it actually was. After all, we all know that time can appear to go fast when we're having fun and slowly when we're bored.

**lightdarkness** · 03-11-2004, 10:39 AM

Time is a set thing, you cant speed it up, or slow it down

and time travel, that cant happen either

it just doesnt make any sence what so ever, and, i dunno, it just doesnt make any sense

VxDx · 03-11-2004, 01:41 PM

Time dilation is as much of a fact as any physics. It has been proven by atomic clocks, and what it insinuates has been proven by the many predictions that it has made and have been experimentally verified.

If you trust any science at all, you might as well trust that time dilation is a fact.

makaveli121212 · 03-11-2004, 02:43 PM

the idea is crazy...the same weirdos that made up physics of a way of explaining how things work came up with many ridiculous ideas...this being one...time is constant, it always has been and it always will be...

VxDx · 03-11-2004, 02:49 PM

Then why, when two atomic clocks were flown around the world at super sonic speeds, and then returned to the same location, did they differ by exactly the amount that is predicted by the time dilation equation of special relativity?

makaveli121212 · 03-11-2004, 02:51 PM

because time is constant

VxDx · 03-11-2004, 02:52 PM

BluE_MeaniE · 03-11-2004, 05:26 PM

From the outside, it doesn't make sense. But specifically, when you really look into it, it seems clear that time does change. I'm going to have to go with physics on this one.
But Spec, I do agree with some things you say. It's kind of strange; the whole system itself speeds up. It doesn't seem to make any sense.
But then again, there are tons of things that don't make too much sense, but are (probably) true and definite fact.

trillobyite · 03-11-2004, 06:04 PM

Well, time isn't just events that flow through, time is actually its own...dimension. The fourth dimension? That's time. Its something we cant see like we see 3-d objects, but its there. Guys, do some research into Einstein's theory of relativity and special theory of relativity, which are pretty much proven to be correct. I am completely against the philosophical views on this, because science has proven these things that make absolutely no sense and are very strange, quantum-mechanics is one example. That stuff really scares the shit out of me, not because the ideas that sprout from them are just messed up, bur because experiments have been made to prove this true. A black hole guys, is a rip through the space-time continuum, thats why if someone falls in a black hole he will be falling and falling forever, while people outside the black hole will see him in the same exact spot that he fell in for over 60 years. And about what vxdx is saing, I think he is trying to explain the theory of special relativity, which proves that time travel is possible, if we could reach anything even close to light speed. But just look into the 2 theroies, they should explain everything.

makaveli121212 · 03-11-2004, 08:24 PM

time dilation has no practical use and probably never will...well according to that 'theory' if i lived on a train traveling 5000 mph i time would move faster for me than the people that are just standing around....therefor i will get older faster, right? try to make sense of something as crazy as that...another thing i dont understand is that this equation of special realtivity, if im not mistaken, is based partly on c, the speed of light...how can you possibly calculate anythings velocity if time is not constant...i know its one of einsteins assumed postulates but it still doesnt register

VxDx · 03-11-2004, 08:48 PM

well, special relativity is where the idea of light speed being a constant and a physical limit. If, in special relativity, something, no matter how small, achieved the speed of light, time, to an outside observer, would stop completely for whatever was going that fast. The particle (lets say) would be cease to exist in the direction of it's travel, and the momentum would be infinite, as would the energy. This is why photont, which travel at the speed of light, ahve no mass. Interesting to say the least.

According to special relativity, the person traveling at some speed notices no difference, but would see everything outside of his frame of reference as traveling at a faster pace, theoretically. Alternately, time for the person traveling would seem to slow down for the person as observed by a person at rest. It follows the equation...

t=to/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) where t is the outside observed time, to is the observed time in motion, v is velocity and c is the speed of light.

Time dilation does have some very interesting and practical uses in the field of particle physics, specifically with regards to particle accelerators and the calculations that predict the outcome of atomic collisions.

Omeganitros · 03-11-2004, 08:57 PM

Unless it affects me and eating my yummy ice cream, I dont care.

Just my .0001 cents worth.

makaveli121212 · 03-11-2004, 09:07 PM

yeah the equation is great, it has no relevance here, but its great

...but still how can the speed of light be constant when at different times we are moving at different speeds, and therfor the speed of everything would change relative to the observer

and im sure the outcome of atomic collisions is a very practical use

AlbinoLime · 03-11-2004, 09:09 PM

Seriously makaveli, I think you got it all backwards. Here is an example:
If i were in a jet going close to the speed of light and traveled for a very long time and then landed, the people around me would be much older than they were when i left, and i would have aged normally. Because i think one of the theories was that when somebody travels at large speed time actually "speeds up" for everything around you, so everything ages faster. That's why my physics teacher said that time travel is possible, but only in the forward direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by makaveli121212

the idea is crazy...the same weirdos that made up physics of a way of explaining how things work came up with many ridiculous ideas...this being one...time is constant, it always has been and it always will be...

Dude you got that one way backwards. Philosophers are the "weirdos" that make things up based on thier opinions and thier culture to explain how things work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trillobyite

A black hole guys, is a rip through the space-time continuum, thats why if someone falls in a black hole he will be falling and falling forever, while people outside the black hole will see him in the same exact spot that he fell in for over 60 years.

Dude where the hell did you get that theory, a comic book? Prof. Stephen Hawking (the black hole expert in the wheelchair) has done much reserch on black holes. And Black holes are not a rip through the "space-time continuum", they are the remains of a (sometimes) giant dead star, collapsed by its own gravity. If you "fall" into a black hole you would not "fall" forever, you would be crushed. The gravity made by black holes is so strong not even light can escape it, that's why they are "black". Actually the only thing that can get away from a black hole is sound becasue it was recently discovered that black holes produce a sound that is so low-piched that no living being can hear it (cnn.com). another thing I learned from research (not comic books), is that if you go through a black hole feet first you will be able to feel the pain of being spagettified for a split second because your nerve impulses move at a speed just above what you would be traveling at if you were sucked into a black hole (cnn.com).

AlbinoLime · 03-11-2004, 09:13 PM

sorry for the double post but it seems makaveli121212 has once again blessed us with his smartness. WTF are you talking about when you say the equation has no relevance here??? It's probably the most relevant thing said so far. Thanks VxDx for explaining what i was trying to. aaaand makaveli121212, stfu and do some research please.

makaveli121212 · 03-11-2004, 09:15 PM

yeah i think i do have it backwards, whatever, its not important for the conversation anyway...and no physics people made all these things up, and made their constants, and their limits and their units, everything...lets not get off topic, is spacetime logical

Omeganitros · 03-11-2004, 09:15 PM

Spagettified....Dude, that's my new word now.

makaveli121212 · 03-11-2004, 09:17 PM

you wouldnt feel anything, youd be sucked in faster than you can blink

*EDIT* in response to the insults thrown at me...why do you feel the equation has anything to do with whether space time is logical or not...

AlbinoLime · 03-11-2004, 09:36 PM

The equation explains WHY it is logical, people have to make up equations to explain things, things dont come out of thin air, people have to discover them. By the way, where do you get your research makaveli121212? I looked at cnn.com (was a while ago), and they cited some pretty crditable sources about the pain of going into a black hole.

makaveli121212 · 03-12-2004, 05:35 AM

yes because everyone knows what going through a blackhole is like...i mnot gonna get off subject, but a black hole basically would atomize you...of course before that actually happened your limbs would be ripped off you, and your head too...

that equation alone does not prove that it is logical...if the equation makes it so logical, care to explain why it makes it so...if we were debating whether or not force existed, F = m*a would hardly be relevant

'people have to make up equations to explain things'...didnt you just say that physicians didnt make things up to explain things and that i had it backwards

03-11-2004, 08:09 AM	#1
Specforces Yes Join Date: Jan 2004 Age: 37 Posts: 5,028	Is the concept of spacetime logical? Now I know science claims that time can speed up, and can produce mathematical equations to support this. However, being more interested in in the subject from a philosophical stand point than science or maths, I have great trouble with the logic of 'time' speeding up. If it is proved philosophically illogical, does this then nullify scientific and mathematical proof? After all philosophy has pointed out how both science and mathematics rely on certain assumptions. Anyway - here are some of my thoughts on the subject of time: Time is a measurement system. It deals with short durations and long durations. A short duration is fast and long duration is slow. THe longer the duration of the measure the slower the measure. So surely it is the 'duration of the measure' that can be speedier or not, not 'time' itself as a measurement system. Lets compare this with the measurement system of tempurature. You can have degrees of hot or cold within the tempurature system. But the Temperature 'system' itself cannot get hotter or colder. That is talking nonsense. If I fly to another part of space where I age more quickly and the plants grow faster, and then fly back to earth and I look much older than you who have stayed on this planet, does that mean time went faster on the foreign planet. Or does it just mean the physical laws of nature move at a faster rate. After all, we all know there is a medical condition on earth where some people age very quickly. Was time faster on the other planet? Again. How could it have been; time itself can't speed up. Even if I perceived that time was going at a slow rate on the foreign planet doesn't necessarily mean it actually was. After all, we all know that time can appear to go fast when we're having fun and slowly when we're bored. __________________ Check Out My Music

03-11-2004, 10:39 AM	#2
lightdarkness Summer!! Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York Age: 35 Posts: 11,308	Time is a set thing, you cant speed it up, or slow it down and time travel, that cant happen either it just doesnt make any sence what so ever, and, i dunno, it just doesnt make any sense __________________

03-11-2004, 02:52 PM	#7
VxDx FFR Player Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,871	n0b

03-11-2004, 06:04 PM	#9
trillobyite FFR Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: New York Posts: 310	Well, time isn't just events that flow through, time is actually its own...dimension. The fourth dimension? That's time. Its something we cant see like we see 3-d objects, but its there. Guys, do some research into Einstein's theory of relativity and special theory of relativity, which are pretty much proven to be correct. I am completely against the philosophical views on this, because science has proven these things that make absolutely no sense and are very strange, quantum-mechanics is one example. That stuff really scares the shit out of me, not because the ideas that sprout from them are just messed up, bur because experiments have been made to prove this true. A black hole guys, is a rip through the space-time continuum, thats why if someone falls in a black hole he will be falling and falling forever, while people outside the black hole will see him in the same exact spot that he fell in for over 60 years. And about what vxdx is saing, I think he is trying to explain the theory of special relativity, which proves that time travel is possible, if we could reach anything even close to light speed. But just look into the 2 theroies, they should explain everything. __________________ Every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilizations, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every hopeful child, every mother and father, every inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every superstar, every supreme leader, every saint and sinner in the history of our species, lives here on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam. http://obs.nineplanets.org/psc/pbd.html

03-11-2004, 01:41 PM	#3
VxDx FFR Player Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,871	Time dilation is as much of a fact as any physics. It has been proven by atomic clocks, and what it insinuates has been proven by the many predictions that it has made and have been experimentally verified. If you trust any science at all, you might as well trust that time dilation is a fact.

03-11-2004, 02:49 PM	#5
VxDx FFR Player Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,871	Then why, when two atomic clocks were flown around the world at super sonic speeds, and then returned to the same location, did they differ by exactly the amount that is predicted by the time dilation equation of special relativity?

03-11-2004, 08:48 PM	#11
VxDx FFR Player Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,871	well, special relativity is where the idea of light speed being a constant and a physical limit. If, in special relativity, something, no matter how small, achieved the speed of light, time, to an outside observer, would stop completely for whatever was going that fast. The particle (lets say) would be cease to exist in the direction of it's travel, and the momentum would be infinite, as would the energy. This is why photont, which travel at the speed of light, ahve no mass. Interesting to say the least. According to special relativity, the person traveling at some speed notices no difference, but would see everything outside of his frame of reference as traveling at a faster pace, theoretically. Alternately, time for the person traveling would seem to slow down for the person as observed by a person at rest. It follows the equation... t=to/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) where t is the outside observed time, to is the observed time in motion, v is velocity and c is the speed of light. Time dilation does have some very interesting and practical uses in the field of particle physics, specifically with regards to particle accelerators and the calculations that predict the outcome of atomic collisions.

03-11-2004, 08:57 PM	#12
Omeganitros auauauau Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Hee-Haw! Age: 35 Posts: 8,897	Unless it affects me and eating my yummy ice cream, I dont care. Just my .0001 cents worth.

03-11-2004, 09:13 PM	#15
AlbinoLime FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 101	sorry for the double post but it seems makaveli121212 has once again blessed us with his smartness. WTF are you talking about when you say the equation has no relevance here??? It's probably the most relevant thing said so far. Thanks VxDx for explaining what i was trying to. aaaand makaveli121212, stfu and do some research please.

03-11-2004, 09:15 PM	#17
Omeganitros auauauau Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Hee-Haw! Age: 35 Posts: 8,897	Spagettified....Dude, that's my new word now.

03-11-2004, 09:36 PM	#19
AlbinoLime FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 101	The equation explains WHY it is logical, people have to make up equations to explain things, things dont come out of thin air, people have to discover them. By the way, where do you get your research makaveli121212? I looked at cnn.com (was a while ago), and they cited some pretty crditable sources about the pain of going into a black hole.

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