Need some opinions

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by stargroup100

if a chart author wants something removed just because he wants it so then no

if he has good reason (like I did) then yeah why not

Out of curiosity, what was the reason behind it?

Also, didn't realize that I was that close to being backpaged, so I'll put what I posted last page in a spoiler:

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

It can only exist if the permission is given from both parties, but again - will not exist unless the stepartist takes the initiative. If the song in question doesn't have respective permissions, then the simfile artist cannot step that file for FFR under any circumstances -- there is no choice in the matter. The other situation is not the complete inverse -- if the song does have the respective permission, the stepartist has the opportunity to do it, but is by no means required. You're looking at the difference between no option, and the potential of an option (as opposed to no option, and a guarantee).

I also have a differing opinion on another point -- whether or not it's correct thinking, I'm not sure.

This "rights transfer" that you mention is applied to both the musician and stepartist when a file is sent in for review/inclusion for the game. The stepartist has the right to their simfile as is (.sm/.dwi), and the musician has the right to their audio files (.mp3/.ogg), and anyone who doesn't agree with that is obviously very dense. That's not where the problem of simfile removal comes into play. Vote4Nixon has rights to his respective simfiles, and the artists have preemptively granted permission for these tracks to be used into the game. Let me go on a quick tangent here:

FFR is a website that is owned by a single person, and everything on it is implicitly owned by this same person -- this person technically has access to any and all assets contained within the site and reserves the right to modify or remove any particular content (responsibly: WHEN NECESSARY); this is pretty much inclusive to anything on the site (forums, forum accounts, chats, profiles, any other miscellaneous services, the game, etc). So yes -- V4N might have the rights to that content, but he loses those rights the moment that the file is converted and hits the game because it does not and will not match the previous content. Assuming that a person sends in a high quality audio file and a SM file presumably created in an editor intended for making StepMania files, that file will be modified considerably when it hits the game, as the audio will more than likely be 160 Kbps (or lower, thanks to Flash limitation) and playable under a frame-timing system at only 30 FPS (an engine limitation). It just goes back to saying that they are voluntarily allowing their content that is normally playable on one game to be ported to another, as FFR does not have its own proprietary content editor/creator.

My counter-example above appropriately responds to this particular thing, but I would like to add that because there is no system for handling this particular thing, neither party has a right to modify/change things that happens. FFR removing the content affects the musician, and leaving it in game affects the simfile artist's desired results -- it doesn't work out. There's no clear rule that states stepauthor rights, but there also is no clear rule that states musician rights in this particular scenario as well, so nothing -has- to be done, as the situation is currently fine the way it is.

[8 Hour Whore]

Yes, they should be allowed. I mean makes perfect sense. We should also have rappers and song artist that their music played in movies do the same damn thing.

-.- people annoy me

[Hakulyte]

I still don't get how someone can do something for free and lose their ability to have a say on their own material that made it into the game. Music artists gives permission for using their songs, but simfiles artists don't have anything saying that they give permission to FFR to lose property of their simfiles ignoring the distribution part.

If a music artist request removal of a song no one will say anything and it will be removed. (see FF7 last battle, Chrono Trigger etc.)
Why when the simfile artist request removal for X reason, it doesn't work out? (In fact, DrugstoreCowboy got Let Me Be Your Pirate removed, but since he's the one who made the music on top of stepping it, he had no issues with removal.. I know there's 22 files in the line this time, but the same logic should apply regardless.)
It doesn't matter if one person, ten people or one million people die in an accident. It sucks in every case.

Everyone should have an equal value when it comes to songs. Stepping is a voluntary process and should be treated with respect even if it means losing that amazing song everyone loved and played 500+ times in hope to achieve a good score.

As an example, It's like my parents bought me a Nintendo 64 for Christmas and decided to take it away after 2-3 months because I was playing 18 hours per day on it and now I got mad because they removed my N64 and I want to play video games. I mean cmon they're the ones who bought it, they got the right. It's not because I'm the main user that it matters. The only difference is that in FFR's case we got plenty of other songs left and more to come with batches etc. there's nothing wrong with these changes.

Hopefully that makes some sense.

/opinion

[stargroup100]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Out of curiosity, what was the reason behind it?

terrible song, suuuuperrr boorrrriiinnggg chart

the main reason I submitted it was actually to make a point that the judges back then had subpar standards and overall not very good judgments and reasoning behind their decisions

[8 Hour Whore]

We didn't have permission for FF7 or Chrono.. Only reason there was no discussion on that is because lawsuits. Permission is instantly given when you submit your stepchart.

[Nullifidian]

from a legal standpoint, FFR can't do anything about it unless stated explicitly that they own the rights. Rights don't get transferred without notifying both parties involved.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

I still don't get how someone can do something for free and lose their ability to have a say on their own material that made it into the game. Music artists gives permission for using their songs, but simfiles artists don't have anything saying that they give permission to FFR to lose property of their simfiles ignoring the distribution part.

It goes along with the fact that it technically isn't their material anymore because they voluntarily submitted it for inclusion into something that isn't theirs, and isn't intended to be open content (FFR keeps their levels hidden to prevent content downloading/distribution, compared to SM where things can be distributed/played on with no modification whatsoever). It doesn't seem like there's a process of legality because it's voluntary submission to something that doesn't make a profit. *shrug*

This topic is an arguable one that really doesn't have a viable solution on both sides (which is why I didn't bother quoting/responding to the rest) -- it all comes down to the fact that the removal is unnecessary, as permission was granted in the past by voluntary submission in the past but is being rescinded without a real discernible reason.

[SK8R43]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

As an example, It's like my parents bought me a Nintendo 64 for Christmas and decided to take it away after 2-3 months because I was playing 18 hours per day on it and now I got mad because they removed my N64 and I want to play video games. I mean cmon they're the ones who bought it, they got the right. It's not because I'm the main user that it matters

Well, if they bought it FOR YOU then it is no longer theirs its yours. So technically they cannot take it away from you. Now if they bought it for the family and you played it that much they have the right to take it away lol

But i get exactly what you are saying
Some people might think differently on this, but in reality its really the way it should be regardless if they bought it or not. lol

[TC_Halogen]

Gonna quote myself to address one more thing:

So yes -- V4N might have the rights to that content, but he loses those rights the moment that the file is converted and hits the game because it does not and will not match the previous content. Assuming that a person sends in a high quality audio file and a SM file presumably created in an editor intended for making StepMania files, that file will be modified considerably when it hits the game, as the audio will more than likely be 160 Kbps (or lower, thanks to Flash limitation) and playable under a frame-timing system at only 30 FPS (an engine limitation). It just goes back to saying that they are voluntarily allowing their content that is normally playable on one game to be ported to another, as FFR does not have its own proprietary content editor/creator.

StepMania and FFR are two different things, and .sm files (an extension of StepMania) is created to be playable (or ported), on FFR. Porting is indicative of having the permission of the party involved - in this case, you give permission to port the file to FFR, and nothing between SM/FFR is copyrighted. FFR as an entity has considerably more leverage because submission to the game is voluntary -- essentially, you're giving up your rights to that simfile to have it created as a FFR file; you have rights to the SM file as its own entity, but you have no rights to the FFR conversion of it (the issue in question). If I were to create a program and it was open-source (comparable to SM, as the content is freely usable/modifiable/etc) with a license allowing derivatives to be created, then a person can do so without my permission whatsoever, and I can't do anything about it. In this case, V4N is creating content, and FFR is creating the derivative (different format, different engine, different game).

In terms of legalities, anyone who submits a simfile completely loses their rights the moment the file is converted, because it becomes a file -for FFR-, which again, is something that isn't intended to be "openly downloadable".

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

It goes along with the fact that it technically isn't their material anymore because they voluntarily submitted it for inclusion into something that isn't theirs, and isn't intended to be open content (FFR keeps their levels hidden to prevent content downloading/distribution, compared to SM where things can be distributed/played on with no modification whatsoever). It doesn't seem like there's a process of legality because it's voluntary submission to something that doesn't make a profit. *shrug*

At this point, you may as well go back to admin forum and see what staff etc. thinks rather than members because as you said, there's no viable solution on both sides. It's more a matter of what the site is ready to do rather than what members think. I still think that adding guidelines/updating info about what it means to be a stepfile artist on FFR should be done regardless to avoid confusion, but there's not much to add. Thanks for clarifying how it works.

[TC_Halogen]

Yeah, definitely. Guidelines need to be set in stone after some deliberation about which decision is the right one, so situations like this don't happen anymore.

[justin_ator]

If he distributes the original SM files to his songs do they get taken down anyway?

just being curious

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by justin_ator

If he distributes the original SM files to his songs do they get taken down anyway?

just being curious

Not sure, but because it's ported, it would probably be more beneficial to punish him for releasing the files rather than punishing others who actually enjoy the files. SM isn't FFR and people struggle with the difference all of the time.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Yeah, definitely. Guidelines need to be set in stone after some deliberation about which decision is the right one, so situations like this don't happen anymore.

This would be the best course of action. We can go back and forth with out respective outlooks about the right of both musicians and stepfile authors, but either way, this still doesn't mean that FFR should risk being on the wrong side of legality if we don't have to. Staff should deliberate and post, for everyone to easily access, a set of rules regarding their rights as a musician or a step artist when they give FFR permission for these things to be used in game.

What I would recommend (and hopefully this would close this gray area of files that were sent into FFR before the rules are clearly posted) is that there is some sort of retroactive clause for all files in game, and for authors to appeal if they don't want their files to fall under the "new" terms. You could give an appeal grace period to notify an administrator about this for a couple weeks or something, and then after that every file will be considered retroactively under the "new" policy aside from ones authors appealed for (for whatever reason). I know you say that this is a different medium and that you feel FFR would be legally protected, but unless you can pull up some laws that can prove this without a shadow of a doubt I would much rather be on the safe side of things here.

Example terms for stepfile authors.

By submitting a stepped file (.sm or .dwi) to Flash Flash Revolution (ffrsubmissions@gmail.com), you hereby agree to all of the following terms and conditions listed henceforth in this posting. You cannot submit to Flash Flash Revolution under any circumstances if you do not agree to the terms and conditions listed; a submission to this website means you fully comply with the following:

1) Rights transfer of any and all submissions for stepped materials to FFR
- Submitting stepped material to Flash Flash Revolution grants FFR the full and irrevocable explicit permission to use this material for the purpose of hosting said material for FFR the game.
- The submission of your file under these conditions shall be absolute under the following conditions held by the FFR staff:
a) The stepped material is unchanged from it's original form structure wise (excluding the limitations of the Flash Flash Revolution conversion software) unless explicit permission from the step author is given.
b) The stepped material is indefinitely and visibly credited to the user who stepped the material.
c) The stepped material has the full consent of the music artist to be in game. If the music artist revokes permission at any time, it will void this agreement and full rights of the step file will return to the user.
d) The FFR staff do not voluntarily relinquish the rights to a given step file.
- A removal of a file by the sole discretion of the FFR staff (excluding cases of the revoking of permission from a music artist) will still be granted full permission to be used at a later time on FFR, so long as it's re-release is solely a file playable on the FFR engine(s).

2) Special requests and removals.
- A step artist may send a message to Flash Flash Revolution staff to change or remove a file in the event of an extraordinary circumstance. This message shall be thoroughly reviewed by the staff, and a quick response given after the staff have decided whether the circumstances are worthy of the action requested by a step artist. The staff reserves the full right to deny, accept, or try to compromise with any and all requests given by a step author.
- If by a staff decision an alteration or removal of a file is accepted as appropriate, this action will be taken, but the FFR staff has the right to change their decision at any time. This is unless FFR staff decide under special circumstances to relinquish their rights to a stepped file, in which case they will lose decisive power to use the file how they see fit.

3) Total control given to Flash Flash Revolution
- If a step author wishes to relinquish themselves of all remaining rights, they may request for the removal of their credit in creating the stepped file. Discredited files on Flash Flash Revolution should be denoted as such, and shall be treated as if FFR created them completely unaided.
- If a step author no longer wishes to no longer be associated with a file for whatever reason, they can relinquish their rights to be completely discredited of their work to FFR. This process is irreversible, and your rights will not be restored under any circumstance.

4) Retroactive nature for all files submitted before these terms and conditions were in effect
- All files that were submitted before these set of terms and conditions were set and available for all to adhere to will be retroactively moved to this new policy after a grace period of 30 days.
- During this grace period, step authors may appeal to have certain or all files to not be placed under these new set of terms, and they will be permanently kept under the old policy.
- Step authors may allow for their files to be placed under this new policy after they filed for an appeal at any time, but they cannot be removed from the new policy a second time.
- Step authors with files filed under this appeal still must adhere to these terms and conditions for any and all future submissions to Flash Flash Revolution.
- From the next open batch of this post, any and all submissions are considered to agree to these terms and conditions. If you submitted a file without full understanding of these terms and conditions, and if and only if the judging process has not begun, you can immediately notify FFR staff in charge of the FFR batch to remove your file from the reviewing queue. If judging has begun, you cannot appeal for your file to be removed.

Yup, I wrote all that...

[TC_Halogen]

There's no risk of legality issues, and it can be proven through a short assessment of what exactly happens when gathering the means for making a simfile.

In terms of licensing, music gathered for FFR is typically explicit permission from the artist (or label) under these parameters, or implicit permissions that automatically give permissions (classic music due to copyright expiration, Creative Commons licenses, etc).

Here's how this would work:

- an artist gives permission to FFR to use for their game (blanket, or not), or has a license on their audio that would imply that it is safe for FFR. In one case, you have explicit permission -- in the other, you have implicit permission. Anything that doesn't fall in this scenario would not be considered for inclusion.

- content made on StepMania is generally for use for others using StepMania, which is a free game that makes no profit, and allows for derivatives that can in fact make profit (see: Pulsen, In The Groove, PIU Pro, etc), and content made through SM can be used on SM or those derivatives safely because SM is and will continue to be open-source. Because StepMania is open-source, the files it uses to make the game function are also open-source and have no licensing attributions behind them. Therefore, SM and SSC files (on their own) have no direct licensing either. Therefore, anyone has permission to create a .sm/.ssc file at anytime without risk, either through SM, or some other means. EDIT: Because Dance With Intensity was an abandoned project and SM supports the saving of .dwi files in older versions, it is also probably correct to assume that .dwi files are an entity of SM that can be considered open-source as well, because if SM works with it, then the source to make it work a certain way probably can be modified as well.

- a simfile artist uses DDreamStudio/SM to create a .sm file and voluntarily submits it to FFR for judgment and inclusion into the game. Because SM/SSC files have no direct licensing on their own, the closest you can get to a license/permission is through the simfile artist that created the content for StepMania, because they have rights to the content within it. At this point, if they submit it to FFR for inclusion, they are sending it to a completely different platform. StepMania itself does not have any rules against distributing content.

- once the file is submitted, it gets converted to a format playable by FFR. FFR operates on a completely different platform than SM. In order for it to work properly, it needs to be ported from a 60-FPS/ms-based timing to a 30-FPS/frame-based timing. Because FFR has no intentions on allowing files to be released/copied/etc., once a file is converted, a user should have no rights to that particular content, as it belongs to FFR. You forfeit the right to it explicitly belonging to you when you voluntarily submit it to FFR.

In any circumstance, because FFR is free/non-profit and everything associated with it is legally free/licensed, there aren't any legal issues that can possibly be resolved. It all comes down to the question of whether or not it's worthwhile to remove content, and considering it comes at the cost of losing 22 simfiles, I'm pretty sure that staff would be against it. Licensing issues are non-existent and everything is done voluntarily, and unless there is an extreme circumstance where removal is an absolute necessity, files should just be left alone.

[SKG_Scintill]

I've only read the first two pages, then it got tl;dr.
I only wanted to know WHY he/she wants his/her files removed? It wasn't explained in the OP, nor in he succeeding two pages.

--- Unrelated to the above ---

The argument "it'll affect everyone's rank if it gets removed" is kind of derogatory. If this site has come to the point that files aren't appreciated for how they're made, but only for one's ranking on given file, it's getting out of hand.
Competitive spirit is fine and all, but keep it real.

As an example, I despise my Op.10 No.9 file.
On the one hand, people say they enjoy playing the file, so I'm fine with it being in game.
On the other hand, if people are only saying that because they have a good rank on it compared to other people, I'd want it removed from the game.
With the latter: the stepartist doesn't feel rewarded for his efforts, rather blamed.

Wow, it's easy to go tl;dr on this topic. I'm such a hypocrite

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

- a simfile artist uses DDreamStudio/SM to create a .sm file and voluntarily submits it to FFR for judgment and inclusion into the game. Because SM/SSC files have no direct licensing on their own, the closest you can get to a license/permission is through the simfile artist that created the content for StepMania, because they have rights to the content within it. At this point, if they submit it to FFR for inclusion, they are sending it to a completely different platform. StepMania itself does not have any rules against distributing content.
- once the file is submitted, it gets converted to a format playable by FFR. FFR operates on a completely different platform than SM. In order for it to work properly, it needs to be ported from a 60-FPS/ms-based timing to a 30-FPS/frame-based timing. Because FFR has no intentions on allowing files to be released/copied/etc., once a file is converted, a user should have no rights to that particular content, as it belongs to FFR. You forfeit the right to it explicitly belonging to you when you voluntarily submit it to FFR.

Obviously StepMania allows for the creation and distribution of stepped files, this makes perfect sense. The step author doesn't own the .sm / .dwi / .ssc files, but rather the content within them as a creative work due to current copyright laws. Although what I don't understand is why you feel that just because the stepped file was converted to the FFR engine, this would somehow completely revoke any rights the step author would have to the file itself.

Although FFR and StepMania are two different things, an FFR file converted from StepMania doesn't fall under some sort of free use doctrine, nor does it grant FFR a pass from giving the rights of the stepped content to the original authors without some sort of consent before hand. A converted file is something that resembles the created work as closely as possible, where the only differences are the limitations of the FFR conversion software. It is similar to that of copying a creative work, and moving it somewhere else, sort of like a port from one thing to another. For example, if I were the owner of a video game, and I gave a group of people the sole permission to port my game from a platform (like platform x) to platform y, but I decided for whatever reason to revoke my permission down the road, are you saying that because it was ported from one platform to another, that I no longer have the rights to my video game? Of course something like this would be highly unorthodox, but I'm just trying to show you where I'm coming from here.

The content of the stepped material is essentially unchanged from it's original form (aside from using commands from an swf instead of reading from a SM file). As you said yourself, the step author owns the creative content inside the file (not the sm / dwi / ssc itself) so all the conversion would really mean is that the fashion in which the arrows flow would be owned by the step author, but not the swf itself. This is still intellectual property, and I feel could be legally considered as infringement if permission was revoked and FFR staff refuses to comply. I mean, if the music was compiled into an swf that made it somehow impossible to convert back to it's original format, would that suddenly mean you would believe that the musician no longer holds the rights to the music any longer if they try ro revoke their permissions?

EDIT:

Originally Posted by SKG_Scintill

I only wanted to know WHY he/she wants his/her files removed? It wasn't explained in the OP, nor in he succeeding two pages.

This is the reasoning:

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

The exact reasoning that was given to me by the person is "I don't want to be associated with these files, they're bad and people hate them." Claiming that people are still saying bad things to him about his files when he's not even here anymore and hasn't had anything new in game since '09

[TC_Halogen]

Scintill: ranks are not the only reason why this is bad, but it certainly is a reason. Assuming that people don't care about the files for what they are is really ridiculous.

[SKG_Scintill]

It was an assumption, I wasn't expecting it to be true. Though, the person in question might feel that way.

[Wayward Vagabond]

how could i miss this thread.