Need some opinions

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

Hey guys remove all my files plz

They are bad and people hate them










jk no thats a selfish dick thing to ask for

You mean swap st.scarhand unlock for my worse file in my list so people don't rage about missing a cool file~

[psychoangel691]

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the point of this thread. Might just be time for a lock now.

[trumaestro]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

We can't just be like okay this person can do it because the file is old but this person can't. It has to be either they can or can't. Either files are esentially property of the FFR game once sent in or they're not. I also don't know why people keep going back to legacy files, this had nothing to do with legacy nor does the person have any legacy files x.x



Most of the users that have been here a while are pretty sure that there was in fact a rule previously that may have been left out of the new thread. Once the site returned a lot of things were a bit screwy in a lot of ways.

Remove the files as requested, then implement rules now that say whether or not or under what circumstances files can be removed. Files released before the new rules were implemented can probably be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

As for rules from a long time ago, if there were any, they weren't in the most logical place: the OP of the batch discussion thread from back then. Proof: http://web.archive.org/web/200804120...ad.php?t=58177

Having to dig through that thread for a random post by tass or the like isn't good enough imo. It needs to have been readily visible.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by trumaestro

Remove the files as requested, then implement rules now that say whether or not or under what circumstances files can be removed. Files released before the new rules were implemented can probably be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

As for rules from a long time ago, if there were any, they weren't in the most logical place: the OP of the batch discussion thread from back then. Proof: http://web.archive.org/web/200804120...ad.php?t=58177

Having to dig through that thread for a random post by tass or the like isn't good enough imo. It needs to have been readily visible.

That thread has been edited and updated tons of times and it may not have even been in that particular thread. I'm not the one that's going to be removing anything I just though it ridiculous that someone would go ahead and rip out 22 files (or close to). I personally don't think that's something that's okay nor should it be okay.

[Wayward Vagabond]

imo it would depend on the files but for the most part i say maybe

[Pseudo Enigma]

take a vote D:

[trumaestro]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

That thread has been edited and updated tons of times and it may not have even been in that particular thread. I'm not the one that's going to be removing anything I just though it ridiculous that someone would go ahead and rip out 22 files (or close to). I personally don't think that's something that's okay nor should it be okay.

Then you need grounds to say no. Files shouldn't/can't be declared property of FFR without explicitly giving notice to the step artist before they submit. Because there wasn't/isn't a policy in place regarding this, there is no good reason to not remove these files.

[Plan_Bsk81127]

Originally Posted by trumaestro

We may not be obligated, but is that the right thing to do? Simply removing it would harvest a better relationship with that artist and others, as well as avoid any drama that not removing it could create.

Whatever is ultimately decided, the rules for adding and removing either stepfiles or music should be similar if not the same.

Who cares about having a relationship with this step artist. This person is no longer associated with the community and site, so Im sure everyone could careless about what he thinks as long as the charts stay in game like they should. This is a selfish act to want them removed and should deserve no respect or having a "better relationship" with him. Just keep the files and let him have his little bitch fit over on that piece of shit site TS he worships.

Originally Posted by Pseudo Enigma

ihmo I say let them get ripped out, it's for quality over all. As long as one is asking for their older files to get taken out anyway. This goes for everyone.

We need to do an overhaul of all the old files anyway.

Ok, lets just rip out 70% of FFR because tbh thats the amount of charts in this game that are poor quality anyway. I mean if we are shooting for quality files, might as well take out all of the bad ones and 70% of FFR seems like a fair number.

[d4u7211]

omfg okay bitches heres how it goes down

when you put files in the game, you aren't the boss, the site is, and all the people moderating it. If you don't want your shit to stay plastered on a website, you dont upload it, simple enough. If you wanted it in a site that does so much work to get the file in the game, you should know that youre pretty much allowing the file to be coproduced, which then means the file had work done on it by the site mods, judges, etc as well as you. IT IS NO LONGER FULLY YOUR PRODUCTION and therefore is not solely your "property." fucking shit its kinda simple.

btw haku, sorry but that N64 wasnt good. this isnt a parent/child relationship. its a grown person to grown person sort of analogy, if you will, in which one person gives another person a prototype, and the other expands off of it. the work and rights are shared.

edit: sorry haku didnt mean to single you out lol, i just realized there were way more pages when i posted this, and plenty of other people i disagree with >.>

[Wayward Vagabond]

except no judge is even allowed to make adjustments to a file without explicit permission from the step artist. so yeah the file is still the property of the stepartist until either tass' post can be found where he says that ffr owns your shit when its accepted or a new rule is implemented.

[d4u7211]

meh i just like arguing

all im saying is that acceptance of a file in ffr is a process, and it takes a group of people to get it into the game. we cant just ignore that work, otherwise ffr would have 50000 files in it and nearly all of them would blow asshole

[Wayward Vagabond]

think of ffr as a giant free compilation album of stepfiles

[trumaestro]

Originally Posted by Plan_Bsk81127

Who cares about having a relationship with this step artist. This person is no longer associated with the community and site, so Im sure everyone could careless about what he thinks as long as the charts stay in game like they should. This is a selfish act to want them removed and should deserve no respect or having a "better relationship" with him. Just keep the files and let him have his little bitch fit over on that piece of shit site TS he worships.

I was more referring to musicians than to step artists, though the analogy stands. It's selfish but there is currently no reason to refuse.

Originally Posted by d4u7211

when you put files in the game, you aren't the boss, the site is, and all the people moderating it. If you don't want your shit to stay plastered on a website, you dont upload it, simple enough. If you wanted it in a site that does so much work to get the file in the game, you should know that youre pretty much allowing the file to be coproduced, which then means the file had work done on it by the site mods, judges, etc as well as you. IT IS NO LONGER FULLY YOUR PRODUCTION and therefore is not solely your "property." fucking shit its kinda simple.

I disagree and go back to my museum idea. FFR is just another medium for showcasing stepfiles. Every file in FFR could just as easily have been released for SM. I'm not discounting all the work the judges and admins do for the step artists, but in this context it is essentially meaningless.

Just because the painting is in a new frame doesn't mean that someone else can add their name to it.

[d4u7211]

I get what youre saying, but when you usually donate to a museum, its a gift. I guess if you said it was your property, sure, you can get it taken down

bottom line it doesnt mean you arent a dick if you try to take your "art" down because you think its bad. Some people might find that to be really conceited if others thought that "art" was better than most.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by trumaestro

I was more referring to musicians than to step artists, though the analogy stands. It's selfish but there is currently no reason to refuse.



I disagree and go back to my museum idea. FFR is just another medium for showcasing stepfiles. Every file in FFR could just as easily have been released for SM. I'm not discounting all the work the judges and admins do for the step artists, but in this context it is essentially meaningless.

Just because the painting is in a new frame doesn't mean that someone else can add their name to it.

On the relationship standpoint when it comes to music artist or stepartist it's kinda like yeah you can oblige but then you're pissing off a whole (or a good majority) of the community vs one person. I just feel like this affects a lot of people and that's unfair just because he doesn't want to be associated with the files anymore.

I kinda don't really feel the museum thing is quite the same because this is a game that you are providing content for. It has stats and things tied to these songs it's just just something on display. Plus aren't most things in museums bought by them or donated? I think you might be thinking more along the lines of a gallery but then again I don't really look much into those things.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by Zageron

Except for the fact that we're talking about a completely un-monetary based system, built with no copyright in mind. By submitting the file, FFR was not being 'granted' permission to use it. More like FFR waits for file submissions so that files are more original, step artists want their files to be on FFR so they make them for FFR.

It is a huge misconception that copyright sort of disappears if monetary gain isn't involved, which is incorrect. The usage of copyrighted works without the permission of the rights holder (unless dictated in some form of free use or if the rights to material expired) is copyright infringement. Just because "I'm not making any money off of it" doesn't change anything, and is the misconception of those uninformed with general copyright law.

FFR does have copyright in mind, by the way, because technically all of the engine builds of "Flash Flash Revolution is Copyright Synthetic Light Studios 2002" up until the current year. That is, unless Synthlight wants to completely remove his rights to have FFR noted as a copyrighted work, in which case everyone essentially has the legal right to copy, host, and distribute any part of FFR anywhere. I don't think that is something you guys want.

Every submission you guys get is a stepper granting FFR the permission to use his works in the game, but that is all it is, permission. This permission (at the moment) is not permanent, indefinite, or by any means irrevocable. Users rights are not removed from them under the current policy, because you have no policy to work with in your legal favor. Without previsions step artists agree to that remove some of their rights, they can revoke their permission at any time. You may attempt to refuse, but a step artist can follow suit with sending a take down notice for their copyrighted materials as mentioned in the DMCA. Now, due to the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act, if you take down the infringing materials, this is as far as it will go (since it wouldn't be infringing until they decided to remove their permissions). I'm not saying that most step artists would file a lawsuit on FFR if you refused to remove their content, but it is a possibility if you choose to believe step author's rights don't exist (even without a proper rights transfer to FFR).

I think this was skipped over, I'll re-post my example terms and conditions I wrote last night regarding this FFR could potentially use as a new policy to prevent this stuff from happening in the future:

By submitting a stepped file (.sm, .ssc or .dwi) to Flash Flash Revolution (ffrsubmissions@gmail.com), you hereby agree to all of the following terms and conditions listed henceforth in this posting. You cannot submit to Flash Flash Revolution under any circumstances if you do not agree to the terms and conditions listed; a submission to this website means you fully comply with the following:

1) Rights transfer of any and all submissions for stepped materials to FFR
- Submitting stepped material to Flash Flash Revolution grants FFR the full and irrevocable explicit permission to use this material for the purpose of hosting said material for FFR the game.
- The submission of your file under these conditions shall be absolute under the following conditions held by the FFR staff:
a) The stepped material is unchanged from it's original form structure wise (excluding the limitations of the Flash Flash Revolution conversion software) unless explicit permission from the step author is given.
b) The stepped material is indefinitely and visibly credited to the user who stepped the material.
c) The stepped material has the full consent of the music artist to be in game. If the music artist revokes permission at any time, it will void this agreement and full rights of the step file will return to the user.
d) The FFR staff do not voluntarily relinquish the rights to a given step file.
- A removal of a file by the sole discretion of the FFR staff (excluding cases of the revoking of permission from a music artist) will still be granted full permission to be used at a later time on FFR, so long as it's re-release is solely a file playable on the FFR engine(s).

2) Special requests and removals.
- A step artist may send a message to Flash Flash Revolution staff to change or remove a file in the event of an extraordinary circumstance. This message shall be thoroughly reviewed by the staff, and a quick response given after the staff have decided whether the circumstances are worthy of the action requested by a step artist. The staff reserves the full right to deny, accept, or try to compromise with any and all requests given by a step author.
- If by a staff decision an alteration or removal of a file is accepted as appropriate, this action will be taken, but the FFR staff has the right to change their decision at any time. This is unless FFR staff decide under special circumstances to relinquish their rights to a stepped file, in which case they will lose decisive power to use the file how they see fit.

3) Total control given to Flash Flash Revolution
- If a step author wishes to relinquish themselves of all remaining rights, they may request for the removal of their credit in creating the stepped file. Discredited files on Flash Flash Revolution should be denoted as such, and shall be treated as if FFR created them completely unaided.
- If a step author no longer wishes to no longer be associated with a file for whatever reason, they can relinquish their rights to be completely discredited of their work to FFR. This process is irreversible, and your rights will not be restored under any circumstance.

4) Retroactive nature for all files submitted before these terms and conditions were in effect
- All files that were submitted before these set of terms and conditions were set and available for all to adhere to will be retroactively moved to this new policy after a grace period of 30 days.
- During this grace period, step authors may appeal to have certain or all files to not be placed under these new set of terms, and they will be permanently kept under the old policy.
- Step authors may allow for their files to be placed under this new policy after they filed for an appeal at any time, but they cannot be removed from the new policy a second time.
- Step authors with files filed under this appeal still must adhere to these terms and conditions for any and all future submissions to Flash Flash Revolution.
- From the next open batch of this post, any and all submissions are considered to agree to these terms and conditions. If you submitted a file without full understanding of these terms and conditions, and if and only if the judging process has not begun, you can immediately notify FFR staff in charge of the FFR batch to remove your file from the reviewing queue. If judging has begun, you cannot appeal for your file to be removed.

[NocturneAunamic]

Originally Posted by Plan_Bsk81127

This is a selfish act to want them removed and should deserve no respect or having a "better relationship" with him. Just keep the files and let him have his little bitch fit over on that piece of shit site TS he worships.

rofl I think you need to go for a walk and shake out that stick in your panties

I can see why anyone would oppose taking out files if it's more than 1 file, it seems crazy to just be ripping out files like that. But I mean it would be nice if giving the chance to remove files by request. There was no transaction or legal agreement that the files would be unremovable from the game once accepted, it's like loaning a friend a game and then when you ask for it back, "oh i lost it" or "naw im keeping it", that's the attitude it gives off.

I understand there are stats connected to the songs, but obviously that hasn't stopped FFR before since like a good amount of legacy and early skill tokens are unplayable on R^2. I think there's a lot of inconsistencies in stances going on, but I'm not here to dictate what's right or wrong.

Originally Posted by d4u7211

omfg okay bitches heres how it goes down

when you put files in the game, you aren't the boss, the site is, and all the people moderating it. If you don't want your shit to stay plastered on a website, you dont upload it, simple enough. If you wanted it in a site that does so much work to get the file in the game, you should know that youre pretty much allowing the file to be coproduced, which then means the file had work done on it by the site mods, judges, etc as well as you. IT IS NO LONGER FULLY YOUR PRODUCTION and therefore is not solely your "property." fucking shit its kinda simple.

Big man in da house oh lawdy.

I wish there were concrete rules on this site dictating this dilemma before everyone starts pulling random shit out of their ass and saying its the rules lol

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by justin_ator

I haven't seen you post in a while, is it bad that I thought maybe the person wanting them removed was you? Kinda realized it wasn't once I heard how many files and the timeframe they were released.

lol no asking for my old bad files to be removed IS the kind of thing I would do... if I was a douchebag

Honestly though just because I'm not proud of them and I know a lot of people don't like the files... I also hear occasional good comments about even what I consider my worst files, so I know someone is enjoying them. (someone once posted on my wall that their favorite file in the game was Science Genius Girl... okay.)
Leaving the files in the game for those few people who enjoy them is the right thing to do. Everyone else doesn't HAVE to play them, they are there if you want or not. (if you are 100% levelrank perfectionist that's your choice not mine)

[krunkykai22]

Originally Posted by trumaestro

Remove the files as requested, then implement rules now that say whether or not or under what circumstances files can be removed. Files released before the new rules were implemented can probably be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

As for rules from a long time ago, if there were any, they weren't in the most logical place: the OP of the batch discussion thread from back then. Proof: http://web.archive.org/web/200804120...ad.php?t=58177

Having to dig through that thread for a random post by tass or the like isn't good enough imo. It needs to have been readily visible.

AND including what Foxfire said above me, I'm sorry, but since there is no legitimate proof that there is a rule stating once you submit a file it is then FFR's personal property. Since, V4N created the file, it's HIS property, nor did he sign a contract or abide to a "gray area" contract stipulating that he now gives ownership away. There are WAY too many loop holes here, and the Staff should put together a group of people to completely revamp all rules in each and every single way so that there are not as many gray areas (if any afterwards) that can be found that are important.

My idea, this fell under a gray area, and regardless whether or not people would be upset, it really isn't up to us. I do enjoy his files, do not get me wrong, I really do, but they are just that, HIS files, and therefore with no contract signing or rule in place saying otherwise, he has every right to remove his own files.

[Razor]

oh my god who fucking cares, let him remove his files out of the game. not a huge deal, nor does it really matter when there's 1000 other songs to play.