Secret and Purchased

[wildfireskunk]

Originally Posted by sayuncle990

If people want the secret songs, they are a much larger and permanent credit sink. For instance, I want to play Final Fantasy Last Battle Festival, but I need 70k credits. When I get 70k credits, I probably won't spend them as I want to keep playing that song. That means I am basically at 0 credits until I build more up. Also, with the prices so low, this sink won't last very long.

Assuming that you don't want to hoarde credits for no reason, and want to purchase all of the songs to try them out and score on them, you'll be spending the same number of credits so it's no less or more of a sink either way.

Also, as a for instance. I'm trying to unlock secret songs at the moment myself, whereas at the same time there are things that I'd like to donate credits to the site for. But at the moment, since the songs I want are so damned high up on the list, I'm not going to be donating until I get a TON of credits, which I think is a shame. I'd still want to buy out the shop, but I'd happily give credits to other causes along the way if I didn't have to get to 70k without spending any.

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by sayuncle990

If people want the secret songs, they are a much larger and permanent credit sink. For instance, I want to play Final Fantasy Last Battle Festival, but I need 70k credits. When I get 70k credits, I probably won't spend them as I want to keep playing that song. That means I am basically at 0 credits until I build more up. Also, with the prices so low, this sink won't last very long.

If you add up all the new values, you will see they total about 4000 MORE than 150k. I did that on purpose.
In other words, nice try, but math.


Honestly, how many of you remember when you started this game? It took me like a week to figure out wtf the secret genre was, and even then that was only because Shash explained the credit hoarding mechanic to me. For people who do not visit the forums, it's absolutely not intuitive.

[justin_ator]

I never knew what it was until I started finding more songs and raged when one went away when I bought a song. I was pissed.

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

amass credits vs spend credits

This is part of the game. For us individuals with a kagillion credits, it's easy to say oh lets just buy up all the secret songs, but it's a decision newer players with fewer credits need to make, are they willing to temporarily sacrifice some secret songs to get a purchased song? Turning all the secret songs into purchased songs would just be a huge kick in the nuts for players with less credits since they would lose all their secret songs and now have to buy them with credits.

Again, this isn't a problem and it doesn't need fixing.

[justin_ator]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

This is part of the game. For us individuals with a kagillion credits, it's easy to say oh lets just buy up all the secret songs, but it's a decision newer players with fewer credits need to make, are they willing to temporarily sacrifice some secret songs to get a purchased song?

You still have to sacrifice to pick which songs you want to purchase..

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

Turning all the secret songs into purchased songs would just be a huge kick in the nuts for players with less credits since they would lose all their secret songs and now have to buy them with credits.

They wouldn't lose any songs or credits, they'd just have to purchase them to regain the songs...


I don't mean anybody any disrespect with all the arguing I'm going to do, but I am definitely going to argue since I think this is a good idea worth looking at for some time.

[AlexDest]

This system has been like this for years and there are no problems with it. This teaches players to "save" on their credits rather than wasting them away in the shop. Having to pay for secret songs while having the credit amount to unlock them makes it convoluted in the shop and you won't have any knowledge of which song goes to which genre (i.e. which songs are purchased and secret).

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

Maybe to replace the secret genre we add a new token sorta thing like achievement tokens and such.

Being we have only two kinds of tokens... And some of them kinda deviate from their intended names..

I recommend an "Achievement Token" section to take the place of secret.

Recommended order if done:

1. Dendrite v2
Req: Won through special events!

2. Tell v3 (Extended Mix)
Req: Won through special events!

3. Coactive [Over My Shoulder Mix]
Req: Won through special events!

4. FREEDOM DiVE
Req: Won through special events!

5. Orchestral Angels
Req: Get 1 billion Grand Total Score, then check your levelrank.php

6. Slow Motion (Wipeout Pure Xtra)
Req: Reach a Multiplayer Rank of 10+

7. You Gotta B-E-E-R!
Req: Get positive scores on all four BEER songs then check levelrank.php.

8. PianoCore
Req: Get a positive score on every public song then check levelrank.php

9. Happy Rainbow
Req: Get under 1000 Average Rank, then check levelrank.php

10. Quickdraw
Req: Full Combo at least 50% of the public songs in-game (All percentages are rounded down)

11. Here We Go
Req: Full Combo at least 99% of the public songs in-game

Note 1: Yes I purposely reordered these regardless of when they came out. The order is the more event oriented ones (still an achievement mind you to win one of these) then other more easily obtained "achievements" in the order I think they could be obtained.

Note 2: What I mean by some tokens differed from the intended name is that for example the requirements of Here We Go and the others like it aren't really findable tokens so much as they're earned. And with the Skill token Genre we have all those absurd AntiPA tokens. (Yes there is a difference to me between AntiPA and Skill. I agree purposely ****ing up scores (Yes this is EXACTLY what you are doing for those) takes some skill, but that's not the original intention.)

[ichliebekase]

(haven't read the entire thread, only the OP)

I support on the condition that the prices would be higher. Only 5k for FFLBF? 30k for Karma? Just throwing an idea out, but how about half of what the requirement is should be the price.

But I support even with the point of "you can just jump right into buying Karma". You still have to get those x amount of credits to get the song, purchase it and then you have to work back up to get the rest of the songs. Plus, it helps get rid of the mass amounts of credits floating around.

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by ichliebekase

(haven't read the entire thread, only the OP)

I support on the condition that the prices would be higher. Only 5k for FFLBF? 30k for Karma? Just throwing an idea out, but how about half of what the requirement is should be the price.

The goal was to make it so (with the two "song of the year" exceptions) you could get all the Secret songs for 150k, making the two systems identical. I agree 30k seems like not much when you compare it to the 150k Karma used to require, but remember you have to buy EVERY song now so it will add up to the same.

[justin_ator]

I think 50% of the "save for secret" cost is reasonable for anything that is more than like 5k for the secret cost. I also agree with Middie on moving things into a third token genre (OR) just removing the secret genre altogether once you move them over.

[TC_Halogen]

Didn't read any responses to the OP, but my response simply is this:

Why try and fix/change something that isn't broken/problematic? Leave it be.

[hi19hi19]

I was explaining to bmah why I posted this thread, and he suggested I put my explanation here too.

In response to the people who want to leave the "accumulation" method of secret files, think of it from a game design/player reward perspective for a moment.
I always figure the "carrot" from being able to unlock more songs via purchasing them was better than the "grind" of just accumulating credits. People like rewards, secret songs feel like they're expected, purchased songs are a choice you are making with your hard earned credits... it's a subtle psychological difference. But that's what makes games such as World of Warcraft so addictive- going out and BUYING/EARNING your gear feels so much better than just being handed it after a month of playing or whatever.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Didn't read any responses to the OP, but my response simply is this:

Why try and fix/change something that isn't broken/problematic? Leave it be.

It's broken because it's a confusing mechanic for new players, and the occasional "where did XXX secret song go!? it was my favorite!" threads can attest to that. How many people do you think are confused and DIDN'T post about it on the forums.

I thought the idea was to make this game more accessible and improve it, not cling to confusing conventions just because they've been around for a whole.

[justin_ator]

^^ I honestly think that you guys should also read the responses in addition to the OP, as people have stated some good points and we're actually discussing this (not directed at you AJ, nothing against you lol, just mean in general).

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

It's broken because it's a confusing mechanic for new players, and the occasional "where did XXX secret song go!? it was my favorite!" threads can attest to that. How many people do you think are confused and DIDN'T post about it on the forums.

There's about 4 threads per year on this topic at best, it's not something that causes a great deal of confusion from my personal viewpoint.

[justin_ator]

Why cause any confusion for new people? As I stated before the secret genre made no sense to me until around the time I got pissed off because I lost my secret songs because I purchased a song.

[rushyrulz]

So the solution is to make everything purchased? If newbies read the stickies like they're highly advised to, confusion wouldn't be an issue. Besides, after you learn that purchasing songs takes away from secret, you learn the system in all of 5 minutes.

[justin_ator]

I feel like it's just pointless to have two contradicting systems, especially when "holding onto too many credits" is something we always hear the staff mentioning.

[jimerax]

I don't think that idea is very realistic for now, sorry.

a few things:
- Secret reqs can be GTS instead of credits.
- Adding more purchased songs can solve the credit usage issue.
- Changing some reqs for secret/purchased for the consistency is possible too.

[devonin]

It's funny that anybody is considering this a credit sink.

For one, holding 150k credits unable to use them is exactly the same number of credits "gone" as spending 150k credits. For two, making them all purchased means I can skip the ones I don't want to have, which ends up being a credit generator, not sinker. For three, there's no credit economy that needs sinking. What do you use them for besides unlocking secret songs and buying purchased ones? Tournies are credit-neutral since the prizes come from donations, but there's nothing tangible to acquire with them that we need to worry about inflation for.

If I was going to change the secret genre I'd do it this way:

Start tracking credits earned from game play as separate from credits on hand.

Once you have enough credits earned from game play to meet the current secret value, the song unlocks permanently even if you then go below the needed amount.

This way you need to actually -earn- the credits to unlock the genre, but you don't lose access to the songs to get the purchased ones.

It sets up a system where you keep unlocking secret songs from gameplay no matter how many credits you ever have on hand (Once I've earned 149k credits from gameplay, and then spend to 0 on the purchased genre, at 1000 more credits I'm at 150k and unlock Karma) while still letting you spend down to get purchased songs as you go.

Edit: This is basically what JX said about making Secret based on GTS

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by devonin

It's funny that anybody is considering this a credit sink.

For one, holding 150k credits unable to use them is exactly the same number of credits "gone" as spending 150k credits. For two, making them all purchased means I can skip the ones I don't want to have, which ends up being a credit generator, not sinker. For three, there's no credit economy that needs sinking. What do you use them for besides unlocking secret songs and buying purchased ones? Tournies are credit-neutral since the prizes come from donations, but there's nothing tangible to acquire with them that we need to worry about inflation for.

Except that the 150k credits are still there if you want to spend them (say, as payment to someone for drawing you a new avatar), whereas in this system they are gone. Thus, credit sink.
Also there's not a solid economic reason for wanting to regulate credits, but I felt it was worth noting.

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

So the solution is to make everything purchased? If newbies read the stickies like they're highly advised to, confusion wouldn't be an issue. Besides, after you learn that purchasing songs takes away from secret, you learn the system in all of 5 minutes.

This is precisely the kind of attitude that makes for poor game design.
"Oh well I've only seen people complaining about the problem a few times, so clearly it doesn't matter"
Um, no, think of how many people might have gotten frustrated and quit without saying something on the forums first. After going through this thread it seems like it's not such an uncommon issue to have early in your time on FFR! Besides, even one thread of that nature should indicate something is broken- if the solution is "well you just need to read this one line on one of FFR's 6000 stickies" then maybe the system itself needs a little clarification.

Originally Posted by devonin

If I was going to change the secret genre I'd do it this way:

Start tracking credits earned from game play as separate from credits on hand.

Once you have enough credits earned from game play to meet the current secret value, the song unlocks permanently even if you then go below the needed amount.

This way you need to actually -earn- the credits to unlock the genre, but you don't lose access to the songs to get the purchased ones.

It sets up a system where you keep unlocking secret songs from gameplay no matter how many credits you ever have on hand (Once I've earned 149k credits from gameplay, and then spend to 0 on the purchased genre, at 1000 more credits I'm at 150k and unlock Karma) while still letting you spend down to get purchased songs as you go.

Edit: This is basically what JX said about making Secret based on GTS

This is a very good suggestion as well. It would solve all the issues I have with the current Secret system.