D8 Deb8

[icontrolyourworld]

My two cents is the top division should be reserved for the top 50 or so players

[RenegadeLucien]

I'm in favor of a D8 for this OT, but I feel like that's answering the wrong question. Love it or hate it, the division system needs to go. Why? Because it encourages holding yourself back, if you care about the prizes. Let's face it, anyone in D8 whose name is not SillyFangirl is facing a serious uphill battle, if not outright playing for second place, because they are effectively in "low D8". This is not a new concept, it's been a thing for as long as the divisional system has been. Anyone who enters a tournament in "low division X," especially in the higher divisions where improving skill quickly is more difficult, is basically screwed. But if these players, when nearing the top of their division just stop improving, play less, hold themselves back, and stay at the top of their division, they have a much better chance at a positive tournament outcome. FFR itself is a game about building one's skill, why do we have a system in place that actively punishes this?

[EtienneSM]

Originally Posted by RenegadeLucien

I'm in favor of a D8 for this OT, but I feel like that's answering the wrong question. Love it or hate it, the division system needs to go. Why? Because it encourages holding yourself back, if you care about the prizes. Let's face it, anyone in D8 whose name is not SillyFangirl is facing a serious uphill battle, if not outright playing for second place, because they are effectively in "low D8". This is not a new concept, it's been a thing for as long as the divisional system has been. Anyone who enters a tournament in "low division X," especially in the higher divisions where improving skill quickly is more difficult, is basically screwed. But if these players, when nearing the top of their division just stop improving, play less, hold themselves back, and stay at the top of their division, they have a much better chance at a positive tournament outcome. FFR itself is a game about building one's skill, why do we have a system in place that actively punishes this?

Homie, most of us have had the hardest files mindblocked for like 4 years now, there's a few people who have a shot at taking 1st LOL.

[RenegadeLucien]

Originally Posted by EtienneSM

Homie, most of us have had the hardest files mindblocked for like 4 years now, there's a few people who have a shot at taking 1st LOL.

...Alright, maybe I chose a bad example. I can't say that I've ever had a mindblock on a file that meant the difference between an AAA and 12+ goods, but maybe it's different for you folks in D8. I don't know. But my point that the divisional system itself is counterproductive because it encourages limiting yourself still stands.

[EtienneSM]

Originally Posted by RenegadeLucien

...Alright, maybe I chose a bad example. I can't say that I've ever had a mindblock on a file that meant the difference between an AAA and 12+ goods, but maybe it's different for you folks in D8. I don't know. But my point that the divisional system itself is counterproductive because it encourages limiting yourself still stands.

I went from AAA'ing the intro of RATO to getting 7/8 goods and 2 misses now almost every time.

It's rough out here lmao. Idk if Luis or Shadow have ones as bad but some files are a menace when it comes to mindblocks.

[awein999]

it's natural progression of competition and past time for d8 given the skill gap of low d7 to high d7 since d7 was first made.

as to the late addition of d8 for this tourney it seems like a knee jerk reaction to the rato aaa which is a little late but it's still a reasonable decision. that monumental accomplishment only makes it more visibly obvious.

[tosh]

I have a lot of opinions about this, but as someone who stopped playing at high D6 and who doesn't even enter tournaments, I'm not sure how valuable my opinions on this topic are.

However, I want to say that I'm glad that there is finally a serious discussion about D8 given that it has unofficially existed for years.

[devonin]

"Divisions are bad because sandbagging" is really just nonsense.

You know what's worse than the possibility that there are people near the top of a division who don't try to improve for -2 years- holding out hope for an Official Tournament they have a chance of winning? Nobody but the top 5-10 players on the site ever winning the tournament because we're all lumped together and a D1 player won't even bother participating if they have to compete against D7/8 people.

[RenegadeLucien]

Originally Posted by devonin

"Divisions are bad because sandbagging" is really just nonsense.

You know what's worse than the possibility that there are people near the top of a division who don't try to improve for -2 years- holding out hope for an Official Tournament they have a chance of winning? Nobody but the top 5-10 players on the site ever winning the tournament because we're all lumped together and a D1 player won't even bother participating if they have to compete against D7/8 people.

I think this can be worked around given the right tournament structure. There's been many proposals for formats for divisionless OTs, and I know I'm not the first to suggest this.

And also, I could argue that this problem already exists, even with the divisional system. I'm currently right at the bottom of D5. My chances of winning D5 are zero. Not "virtually" zero, not "effectively" zero, but flat-out 0.00000%. There's simply no way I'll be able to close the skill gap between myself and players at the top of the division like axith, Riot, and Fluttershy in just a few weeks. If the goal of the divisional system is to create tournament ranges that anyone can win (which seems to be the primary drive to creating a D8 in the first place), I'd say it's not currently doing that. (And sorry if I'm coming across as bitter here, that's not my intention here.)

[Dinglesberry]

Originally Posted by RenegadeLucien

I think this can be worked around given the right tournament structure. There's been many proposals for formats for divisionless OTs, and I know I'm not the first to suggest this.

And also, I could argue that this problem already exists, even with the divisional system. I'm currently right at the bottom of D5. My chances of winning D5 are zero. Not "virtually" zero, not "effectively" zero, but flat-out 0.00000%. There's simply no way I'll be able to close the skill gap between myself and players at the top of the division like axith, Riot, and Fluttershy in just a few weeks.

yea man i agree im in d5 too and i just have no idea how ill win i think im gonna start practicing ffr like 2 days before the OT starts but maybe not

[Poison-]

Originally Posted by RenegadeLucien

There's simply no way I'll be able to close the skill gap between myself and players at the top of the division like axith, Riot, and Fluttershy

Yes there is. We see it nearly every tournament.

[PhantomPuppy]

Originally Posted by RenegadeLucien

There's simply no way I'll be able to close the skill gap between myself and players at the top of the division like axith, Riot, and Fluttershy in just a few weeks.

like what poison said, i've seen people go up from D5 to top of D6 over the course of an OT. i don't think there's been one yet where a case like that hasn't happened.

edit: yes, i'll admit it's frustrating when people in my own division get sudden skill increases during OT, but at the same time it means that they put a LOT more effort in that i haven't seen.

[MikeShinoda12345]

Originally Posted by RenegadeLucien

Who has won from the bottom of a division in the past? I can't remember anyone winning from the bottom of a division above D3.

Off the top of my head, OneHandNow (mi40) and YoshL are two players who catapulted waaaaay beyond their division over the course of an OT. Also lol a "most improved" award makes FFR feel like a Kindergarten class, personally ._.

Originally Posted by PhantomPuppy

yes, i'll admit it's frustrating when people in my own division get sudden skill increases during OT, but at the same time it means that they put a LOT more effort in that i haven't seen.

lol sorry hahaha

[PhantomPuppy]

Originally Posted by MikeShinoda12345

lol sorry hahaha

i like how you already knew who i was talking about lol

mikeshinoda is another example of coming out of nowhere and wrecking D6 :P

[RenegadeLucien]

Originally Posted by PhantomPuppy

mikeshinoda is another example of coming out of nowhere and wrecking D6 :P

Is this about last tournament? Because he didn't really come out of nowhere, he was already high D6 before the tournament. In fact, almost no one truly "came out of nowhere" last tournament.

Looking at last tournament's results and Trumpet's data, we can see the following results:

D7 (41 entrants):
Participants ranged from 85 to 95 skill rating (with an outlier at 79)
1st: EtienneSM - 95.0018 (2nd) by skill rating before tournament
2nd: shadow1800 - 94.4655 (4th) by skill rating before tournament
3rd: smartdude1212 - 93.1637 (8th) by skill rating before tournament

D6 (51 entrants):
Participants ranged from 76 to 87 skill rating (with an unranked outlier)
1st: YoshL - 87.003 (1st) by skill rating before tournament
2nd: ItsOnlyDanO - 86.1012 (5th) by skill rating before tournament
3rd: MikeShinoda12345 - 85.7518 (9th) by skill rating before tournament

D5 (82 entrants):
Participants ranged from 65 to 78 skill rating (with two outliers at 62 and 60)
1st: jose656 - 75.9966 (23rd) by skill rating before tournament
2nd: Ghost_Medley - 77.3321 (5th) by skill rating before tournament
3rd: alphanish - 75.7505 (25th) by skill rating before tournament

D4 (50 entrants):
Participants ranged from 57 to 66 skill rating (with one outlier at 55.5)
1st: magnans - 61.796 (27th) by skill rating before tournament
2nd: Winrar - 64.0114 (12th) by skill rating before tournament
3rd: Conorn - 63.3008 (17th) by skill rating before tournament

D3 (51 entrants)
Participants ranged from 46 to 55 skill rating (with an outlier at 57, and two at 44 and 39)
1st: chuybar - 54.1844 (10th) by skill rating before tournament
2nd: JotaCeOK - 47.848 (43rd) by skill rating before tournament
3rd: Shadowcliff - 54.8308 (6th) by skill rating before tournament

D2 (52 entrants)
Participants ranged from 23 to 47 skill rating (with three outliers at 19, 18, and 13)
1st: Stopmovin - 45.5377 (3rd) by skill rating before tournament
2nd: Felyx - 44.6172 (4th) by skill rating before tournament
3rd: Kriptos - 40.345 (12th) by skill rating before tournament

D1 (34 entrants)
Participants ranged from 5 to 24 skill rating (with three outliers at 1 each)
1st: Nighdragon - 24.3243 (1st) by skill rating before tournament
2nd: Charmoeleon - 16.0729 (13th) by skill rating before tournament
3rd: Killionz - 16.8736 (12th) by skill rating before tournament

In summary, out of the entire tournament, only two of the 21 podium finishers, magnans (D4) and Jota (D3) started in even the bottom half of their division, and only Jota started from what could be considered the bottom. Even in the lowest divisions, which would seem to be the most equal playing fields all things considered (since improvement is more important than base skill level at these divisions), the tournament was mostly won by those starting at or near the top.

[Dinglesberry]

arrow game is very skillset based, imo you cant call any one single player the #1 player because interestingly enough all the top players have different skillsets that theyre best at, attang chordjack/jack, jake stamina/hs, snover speed, etc

I think d8 is definitely and thing and probably needed for FFR but it requires more files at the 100+ level to accommodate D8 players

[RenegadeLucien]

Who has won from the bottom of a division in the past? I can't remember anyone winning from the bottom of a division above D3.

And I actually wish there were records of the skill ratings of OT winners/high placers before and after the OT so we'd have hard numbers on this. Especially since then we'd be able to have "most improved" awards and such.

edit: So there actually were such stats last tournament, courtesy of Trumpet. Now if only I knew who won last time...

[Charu]

Oh, this is a thread.

I have not played in FFR in forever and have not read all of this thread...

...The demand for when D7 was made was done due to not just one person, but multiple players achieving scores and goals that, realistically, other D6 contenders could not hope to obtain.

I think right now, we still have a short supply of actual D7 players, thus I believe D8 should NOT be a thing at all. Least not until D7 faces the problem that D6 players faced. It has not come to that point yet.

...

However, I think, if there is absolutely a demand for a title, I'd approve. Just nothing to do with OT since, well... I really don't see a reason to make an entire division just because of ONE player...

I'm assuming it's because of that one player anyways, lol.

[ULTIMEGA]

Originally Posted by Charu

Oh, this is a thread.

I have not played in FFR in forever and have not read all of this thread...

...The demand for when D7 was made was done due to not just one person, but multiple players achieving scores and goals that, realistically, other D6 contenders could not hope to obtain.

I think right now, we still have a short supply of actual D7 players, thus I believe D8 should NOT be a thing at all. Least not until D7 faces the problem that D6 players faced. It has not come to that point yet.

...

However, I think, if there is absolutely a demand for a title, I'd approve. Just nothing to do with OT since, well... I really don't see a reason to make an entire division just because of ONE player...

I'm assuming it's because of that one player anyways, lol.

Considering that only one person has AAA'd RATO (so far) I don't think an 8th division is necessary yet since it's only one individual versus many others. It's of an interesting note to me that when you think about the idea in and of itself, it's worth mentioning.

Does that mean that it's an absolute must? I personally don't think so and here's why I say that. The number of level 100+ charts is so few and so few of these charts have been slain by the legendary players of the site (kind of a ramble, I know) is kind of meaningless in a sense. Don't get me wrong - AAA'ing any of these charts is an impressive feat in and of itself and as it has been shown, it IS doable.

But the whole debate arose when RATO was finally killed and put to bed, being the second highest public difficulty of any song in the game, and to make D8 a thing off of this one historical achievement is jumping the boat before it's even set sail on its maiden voyage.

I would honestly consider the idea as just that: an idea. It has its merits, but I wouldn't warrant the creation of it until at least three people get a AAA on vROFL, and I just don't see that happening.

[s1rnight]

my opinion is they shld make d8 whoever currently has a higher rank than user "samurai7694", cuz i rmemeber that guy being the best guy at this game on the site when i was here, and apparently some new super freaks from outer space have arrived, so that seems correct and symbolic to me

hello btw i havent been here in a while