Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

[CaosNight]

If people are looking for an easier 10, I think Blue Noah is good.

[stavie33]

I REALLY don't like the VC and C lists, but whatev. Seriously though, whose idea was it to put Famouz on the list? That's an easy AAA compared to so many other C's that people will AAA and get nothing for, I feel that's wrong. And Kirby's Dream Land and AOM? The list seems really unbalanced. Oh well, VC I just wasn't expecting some and surprised at the lack of some, no Sepia or Frozen Rain? No Hatten Carnival? No Aurora Saikyou or Youkso? Why? The biggest issue by far is the utter lack of these 5 songs:

Feldschlatt (this is utter nonsense, by far the hardest VC, should definitely be there for tier points), Bus Rides with People, Keep in My Mind, Djdj PVC, and Fast Asleep. These are all extremely challenging songs and I feel tier points are made not just to determine skill, but to give people a actual logged point reward for reaching a certain skill level and accomplishment, hence why I feel all the hardest songs per difficulty deserve tier points, and then some mid ones, but all the hards first, otherwise it makes no sense, as I've said, you get 'skill' points for AAA'ing songs like Nitrx and Gatcha x2, but nothing for AAA'ing Feldschlatt, which for me was, and still is a major accomplishment as that song is the pinnacle of VC's. Also, Kil Stage should be there too. What happened? Did people submit easy songs so they could all have tons of tier points? Tier points should be accessible to the casual players too, that's why we have a D and VD list, but let's not forget the point of this list, it's to rank players in 'skill' categories, and once you get to the VC range, this kinda doesn't happen, since the hardest VC's, the ones that are FMO level and deserve the most tier points as a true badge of skill are representing someone who has 'mastered' the VC level songs are absent from the list.

[stavie33]

Honestly, reading what AJ is saying and others about VC list being 'harsh' and making these 'balanced', I have to write a seperate post with my idea/opinion.

I think it being harsh is utter bull. Tier points are meant to display skill and rank players based on these tiers, let's not forget that's the point of a tier list. By extending the difficulties available down to 7's, we have already adjusted for accepting the casual player and new players who want to get good at this game with pretty low boundaries for obtaining tier points. The two biggest jumps in difficulty in this game are D to VD and IMO the biggest C to VC for anyone new to the game, and I feel C to VC is significantly larger, as the files get exponentially more tricky (Fantrastic and Rose are comparable, Carrousel Paradise and Bus Rides with People are like two other worlds). The major problem with the last list is it only included the absolute hardest VC's and then all FMO's/FGO's, and was about to cut out VC's all together, thus sealing normal players off by the largest gap in the game (about midway through VC, 72-73 actually, is where I feel the files get insanely harder, Legend to Crash the Beat and Versatile for example). Because of this, we needed to extend the list, and we did.

So what to do now? I feel the tier list should include the hardest songs for each difficulty, as those are the songs most deserving of tier points and show true mastery and skill of that difficulty, which is what tier points are about, we're just lowering the bar for people who can't jump that high. If you're a kid in a small pole vaulting competition, your bar is lower than the adults, but you still have to make it OVER the top of the bar, no way around it. That's all we should be doing. But I understand balance as well, so if the lower levels (V-C) must be lowered they should, but VC should include ALL of the songs 73-75 difficulty. VC has a huge range of songs, 68-75, and the last 3 difficulties are the huge difficulty ramp (the FGO ramp is more like a wall, so I don't count it, it's absurd and needs editing). Excluding any of those for easier songs seems ridiculously unfair as then players who can actually DO the harder levels would be ranked among many who can do lower ones, or there would be a crossover of points due to the balances (getting all the easy and some hard and getting all the hard songs would be much closer), thus making the line dividing tiers much smaller. This is an issue. I still standbye the 25 hardest songs for each difficulty, and for VC, all 73-74's should be applied. The good thing is, you get tier points for AAA's. So here is why this will still work and be encouraging:

The level between scores for songs goes something like this:
FC <<<<<<<<< Clean FC <<<<<<< SDG <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< BF <<<<<<<<<<<< AAA

First you FC, then you learn not to mash, which means you can hit the patterns, which shouldn't make it hard to shave of goods, once you hit an SDG though, then your number of faults run out and it starts taking much more skill, and being really careful, then once you hit the elusive BF, it's pretty much luck between that and a AAA most of the time. Because of this, I assume people obtaining the tier points would at least be able to Clean FC the songs, so by the time they can start AAA'ing the lower songs in the difficulty range, they should be clean FC'ing the higher ones, getting them some starting tier points to be proud of. The reward for beating the lower and mid songs should not be tier points, but the AAA count, as AAA's are a big deal and something quite rewarding, and by shaving those down, they work there way up to the songs hard enough to merit tier points, like medals. And the better they get at the easier songs, the most tier points they should start being able to get on the higher songs, so by the time they hit the end of the difficulty, AAA'ing the hard ones shouldn't be an issue, you work your way through each difficulty, and the close you get to the end, the more points you earn, until you have perfection. I also feel there should be a bonus given for getting every tier point for a certain difficulty, if it's either +10/20 tier points or even maybe some new achievement tokens down the line, or a badge/header that displays your tier ranking, it's additional incentive and would also encourage the ladder climb, which I think is not only important for skill improvement, but to judge who is really the better man.

So in short, for VC, all 73-75 songs should be on the list, or as many as can fit, no lower. The 25 hardest songs per difficulty, with maybe as you go the the VD and D, have some mid ones, but few. It shouldn't be 'oh, everyone gets easy/mid/hard songs so everyone can have something to get tier points on!'. If that's the case, why'd we lower the bar so low that it goes to 7's? It's already accessible to new players at 7, make it the harder songs so it actually does what tier points should do, and keep AAA incentives and maybe bonuses so people will at least have reason to climb the ladder of difficulties in the songs and practice if they really want those elusive, but obtainable, tier points.

[emulord]

Good list. Here are my comments:

I think a good VD for the list would be Visions (NRGyzd mix). Its the only 8 with rolls. Maybe instead of GO!

I would be against having Famouz on the list because its a Otaku Speedcore [heavy] unlock, when Yoshi's Cookie almost fills the same role.

Do we really need Monstrous Turtles, Vertex Beta, and Nebula[she]? Id vote for replacing one with Cutting Circles or Nova Pulser.

Also, if the list is too hard, we could do Pwntendo -> Dot Matrix girl. Thats a easier version of the same thing basically.

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by stavie33

we should have only the hardest songs of each difficulty

Nope, not gonna do it that way. This isn't a tier list segregated by difficulty where you move up to 8s when you can do the hardest 8s, it's a tier list that captures the entire difficulty range from 7 through 13. So we're going to try to have difficulties everywhere in that range. Case closed.

[emulord]

@Stavie33

Some people can't AAA any song, no matter how easy. They either havn't figured out a lag free setup or don't have enough concentration. Whatever the case, they still should get a few TPs for FCing 7s-9s.

Having a irregular song difficulty curve has no real advantage over a broken one. It makes people get TPs in piles, which is what this TP rewrite is trying to fix. We want people to accumulate them gradually so we can actually differentiate between people of close skill levels.

[remedy1502]

Originally Posted by stavie33

I REALLY don't like the VC and C lists, but whatev. Seriously though, whose idea was it to put Famouz on the list? That's an easy AAA compared to so many other C's that people will AAA and get nothing for, I feel that's wrong. And Kirby's Dream Land and AOM? The list seems really unbalanced. Oh well, VC I just wasn't expecting some and surprised at the lack of some, no Sepia or Frozen Rain? No Hatten Carnival? No Aurora Saikyou or Youkso? Why? The biggest issue by far is the utter lack of these 5 songs:

It's not supposed to be all the hardest songs ever on this list. Otherwise it would be only FMOs and FGOs and maybe high VCs like it used to be. It's supposed to be a progression from 7+. What is it about those songs that make them extremely TP worthy?

Feldschlatt (this is utter nonsense, by far the hardest VC, should definitely be there for tier points), Bus Rides with People, Keep in My Mind, Djdj PVC, and Fast Asleep. These are all extremely challenging songs and I feel tier points are made not just to determine skill, but to give people a actual logged point reward for reaching a certain skill level and accomplishment, hence why I feel all the hardest songs per difficulty deserve tier points, and then some mid ones, but all the hards first, otherwise it makes no sense, as I've said, you get 'skill' points for AAA'ing songs like Nitrx and Gatcha x2, but nothing for AAA'ing Feldschlatt, which for me was, and still is a major accomplishment as that song is the pinnacle of VC's. Also, Kil Stage should be there too. What happened? Did people submit easy songs so they could all have tons of tier points? Tier points should be accessible to the casual players too, that's why we have a D and VD list, but let's not forget the point of this list, it's to rank players in 'skill' categories, and once you get to the VC range, this kinda doesn't happen, since the hardest VC's, the ones that are FMO level and deserve the most tier points as a true badge of skill are representing someone who has 'mastered' the VC level songs are absent from the list.

Calm your shit he already said the VC list needs to be changed. And it's because it has most of the harder VCs anyway and needs more of a range. You're looking at tier points as an elitist rank. It's not like that anymore. Tier points are for everyone who isn't a complete beginner. You should have figured that out when it became 7+ from being like 4 VCs and the rest FMO/FGO.
There is room for 40 VCs on ths list. You can still easily have your "skill categories" and get Feldschlacht, Bus Rides, Didj, etc in the list. I've been looking at 10s and playing them today, and categorizing them. It's definitely possible to have your low VC - high VC range, while having files requiring all the different skillsets.

Kinda just a random list I'm making not so quickly right now (this is by no means what I think the tier list should be for VCs, just kinda trying to show stavie how it could work using VCs of "FMO level" while keeping skill categories and have more than just hard files):

Jumpstream files: Cutting Circles, Katharsis, Lune Noir, Tamashii, Southern Cross, {Frozen}
Total: 6

Jacks: XP Sounds Attempt, Counter Strike Gun Sounds, Mysterious Desert, Starlight, Ievan Polka, Infiltration (has jumpstream too)
Total: 12

Stream: Purple, Vertex Beta, Carrousel Paradise, Monstrous Turtles, ViennaCore, Classical Insanity, Blue Army
Total: 19

Bursty/rolly etc: Fast Asleep, Didj PVC, Szamar Madar, Pimp Slap, Twelve, Gene Gadget Zone - Act 1, X-Tinction
Total: 25

Colourful/Technical etc: Piano X Forte, Final Step, Fake Jazz, Finder Keepers,
Hero's Theme (w.i.p), Sirius, Adult's Sketchbook, We Wish You A Merry Xmas (Jazzy Groove Mix)
Total: 33

Other Hard files:
Feldschlacht, K8107, Beadumaegen, Keep in Mind, Bus Rides With People, Lunatic Princess
Total: 40

Other usable songs: CRASH the BEAT, Szertscelesen (or whatever), Kil Stage

It can work. (Actually this seems like a nice list but what do I know)
I spent a goddamn while making this example list people better comment on it lmfao

[TC_Halogen]

That's actually really balanced, remedy. I also appreciate the fact that you not only took the time to take an even amount of files for each group, but also tried to add newer songs in as well.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by remedy1502

You're looking at tier points as an elitist rank. It's not like that anymore. Tier points are for everyone who isn't a complete beginner.

No I don't think it's an elitist rank, that's why we extended it to 7's, to make it for the general players, read my large ass post. That doesn't mean we should cut tons of actually hard and rewarding songs that deserve tier points and give a better range of skill for extremely easy ones that muddle borders between difficulties and tier groups, which if I recall, was the original issue anyway. As I said, by extending it to 7's we've balanced it for ordinary players, balancing tier points across difficulties pretty much implies that we should have nearly every song from that difficulty then, because saying I give you points for X easy VC and you don't get points for Y VC that's 10x harder is just not satisfying or gratifying for the players once they finally start tackling those songs, and find out they aren't getting any points for most of them. At least if they are towards the harder end, it makes sense you get points for the more difficult songs and work your way up for the smaller ones. And you don't NEED a AAA to climb the ladder, just try and shave the good as low as your computer and ability will let you, lord knows how much lag I had to deal with until I found out how to fix it. Balancing the tier system is all fine and dandy, but doing that for each difficulty and extending it down to 7 seems to be getting rid of the point of a tier system, to rank players. It doesn't need to be elite (VC+), it is already generalized (7+ is pretty low), so why shouldn't the tier points accurately represent the ability of the player within those difficulties? If you can perfect the easier songs, you should be able to get half the points on the higher songs, so you are mid, but if you AAA all easy and mid songs, and then do well on the few hard songs that are there, you are close to complete tier points for that difficulty without dealing with more than half the actually hard songs in that difficulty, it doesn't seem like it will rank correctly to me. I guess we'll see how it goes.


Also I approve of Remedy's list as long as he meant Lunatic Princess and not Twilight (which I don't even know if that's a song)

[i love you]

Originally Posted by iironiic

Also, some newer/harder fun files to consider for the difficulties:

8's: A Beautiful Storm

10's: Sirius, Phantom Ensemble, Feld, Finders Keepers, Fast Asleep, and Bus Rides.

These are very good choices however in the song list that we provided in the outline some of those newer files like Finders Finders for example did not even exist in game yet when we started the outline. We probably should really update to the most recent songs that were released this past month. I will post a list of those newer ones sometime today. I am really glad that you pointed out those types of songs out to my face hehe

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

One way that I feel could be beneficial to helping the structure of the tier list is to examine what the main subjective features of a file (i.e. pattern choice) are. Alternatively, examine other main factors of a song, like BPM, NPS, etc.

This is what we pretty much did for the D-C lists. As for the VC ones (and I will be honest), It was done at a different day so my mindset was not as consistent as it was when I did the D-C list so I ended up just picking ones that I thought would be reasonable for TP but in the end, the VC's ended up too strict so looks like that list in particular will need the most changing then the lower three lists.

Originally Posted by remedy1502

Alright I'm home and have a ****ton of time to kill and I'm feeling productive. I'll play through a bunch of 10s and sort them by the type of file and rate them like Wilson suggested (within their own category).
I'll try to come up with (hopefully) a good list with a larger range of difficulty. Probably by tomorrow, maybe even tonight if I'm feeling ambitious.

Sweet, go for it!

Originally Posted by CaosNight

If people are looking for an easier 10, I think Blue Noah is good.

I think Blue army will be a better replacement for that to be honest. I feel that Blue Noah is harder than Blue army or maybe that is me just being subjective lol.

Originally Posted by emulord

I think a good VD for the list would be Visions (NRGyzd mix). Its the only 8 with rolls. Maybe instead of GO!

Visions is a good choice however it is a really old file and the rolls in the file makes it a really high 8 which is what we do not want.

I would be against having Famouz on the list because its a Otaku Speedcore [heavy] unlock, when Yoshi's Cookie almost fills the same role.

That was the reason why we added Famouz, Amefuri Koneko, and Ruins into the list because we want to encourage people to go for the Heavy unlocks. Yoshi's Cookie is however a good choice though but I will leave that to the community if they would like to replace Famouz with that song.

Do we really need Monstrous Turtles, Vertex Beta, and Nebula[she]? Id vote for replacing one with Cutting Circles or Nova Pulser.

To be honest, we really do not need those songs however I do not think that Cutting Circles and Nova Pulser would be good replacements for stuff like those but I will not determine that yet until I hear more from other people. Honestly, we should focus on picking more newer songs than older ones.

Also, if the list is too hard, we could do Pwntendo -> Dot Matrix girl. Thats a easier version of the same thing basically.

Nah Pwntendo definitely should be on the VC list. Dot Matrix girl would also be good on the VC list as well but not to replace Pwntendo.

Originally Posted by qqwref

Nope, not gonna do it that way. This isn't a tier list segregated by difficulty where you move up to 8s when you can do the hardest 8s, it's a tier list that captures the entire difficulty range from 7 through 13. So we're going to try to have difficulties everywhere in that range. Case closed.

@Stavie: Read what Michael has stated. It is going to stay that way and there is nothing you can do about that. We have told you this countless times. I think I will add this in the FAQ.

[i love you]

Double posting alert! (I do not really care though to be honest but just in case other people do)

EDIT: @Remedy: I love you <3 (no homo of course)

Jumpstream files: Cutting Circles, Katharsis, Lune Noir, Tamashii, Southern Cross, {Frozen}
Total: 6

Jacks: XP Sounds Attempt, Counter Strike Gun Sounds, Mysterious Desert, Starlight, Ievan Polka, Infiltration (has jumpstream too)
Total: 12

Stream: Purple, Vertex Beta, Carrousel Paradise, Monstrous Turtles, ViennaCore, Classical Insanity, Blue Army
Total: 19

Bursty/rolly etc: Fast Asleep, Didj PVC, Szamar Madar, Pimp Slap, Twelve, Gene Gadget Zone - Act 1, X-Tinction
Total: 25

Colourful/Technical etc: Piano X Forte, Final Step, Fake Jazz, Finder Keepers,
Hero's Theme (w.i.p), Sirius, Adult's Sketchbook, We Wish You A Merry Xmas (Jazzy Groove Mix)
Total: 33

Other Hard files:
Feldschlacht, K8107, Beadumaegen, Keep in Mind, Bus Rides With People, Lunatic Princess
Total: 40

Other usable songs: CRASH the BEAT, Szertscelesen (or whatever)

^ We will definitely use this example no doubt. I think a lot of people will agree with this.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by i love you

@Stavie: Read what Michael has stated. It is going to stay that way and there is nothing you can do about that. We have told you this countless times. I think I will add this in the FAQ.

You've told me this once, when Michael stated it. And obviously I had my reasons for stating it, it wasn't to be elitist at all. I'm beginning to think the community just doesn't like me, I make claims to back up my statements always, and either no one reads them or they just say 'shut up stavie your opinions suck' without even realizing I've addressed nearly EVERYTHING they complain about and generally I have the opposite view. Maybe my posts are too long and coherent, who knows. I'm used to essays, so I write like essays. But this is the first time anyone has specifically told me that this list wasn't aimed to determine accurate tiers but be more acceptable to the newer players and a broader range of players, which is what I always thought this was about. I didn't know this was about choosing some easy, some mid, and some hard songs for each difficulty to represent the range for each difficulty, not the whole game, which regardless, I still think is off for reasons I've stated above, if you are trying to get the whole range do so to a degree, but don't chop off rewarding and skill testing songs to make the tier points offset. We'll see how this works, I'm expecting tons of people to be landing in very high upper tiers, many in lower, and a huge, unnatural gap in the middle which would be adjusted then by extending points required to reach higher ranks exponentially, thus causing a break in the plot range and making it even harder to determine accurate placement. I could be completely wrong though, we'll see.

[qqwref]

Agreed, remedy's list is pretty solid. Great work.

[remedy1502]

Originally Posted by stavie33

Also I approve of Remedy's list as long as he meant Lunatic Princess and not Twilight (which I don't even know if that's a song)

That's exactly what I meant, I edited it. I had just read "Twilight Jewel" from my notepad and cause there's a prochat mod Twilight Princess and, well yea.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

That's actually really balanced, remedy. I also appreciate the fact that you not only took the time to take an even amount of files for each group, but also tried to add newer songs in as well.

Originally Posted by i love you

Double posting alert! (I do not really care though to be honest but just in case other people do)

EDIT: @Remedy: I love you <3 (no homo of course)

Jumpstream files: Cutting Circles, Katharsis, Lune Noir, Tamashii, Southern Cross, {Frozen}
Total: 6

Jacks: XP Sounds Attempt, Counter Strike Gun Sounds, Mysterious Desert, Starlight, Ievan Polka, Infiltration (has jumpstream too)
Total: 12

Stream: Purple, Vertex Beta, Carrousel Paradise, Monstrous Turtles, ViennaCore, Classical Insanity, Blue Army
Total: 19

Bursty/rolly etc: Fast Asleep, Didj PVC, Szamar Madar, Pimp Slap, Twelve, Gene Gadget Zone - Act 1, X-Tinction
Total: 25

Colourful/Technical etc: Piano X Forte, Final Step, Fake Jazz, Finder Keepers,
Hero's Theme (w.i.p), Sirius, Adult's Sketchbook, We Wish You A Merry Xmas (Jazzy Groove Mix)
Total: 33

Other Hard files:
Feldschlacht, K8107, Beadumaegen, Keep in Mind, Bus Rides With People, Lunatic Princess
Total: 40

Other usable songs: CRASH the BEAT, Szertscelesen (or whatever)

^ We will definitely use this example no doubt. I think a lot of people will agree with this.

Originally Posted by qqwref

Agreed, remedy's list is pretty solid. Great work.

PS I think this is the most I have contributed to FFR ever.

[i love you]

You did a great job remedy. Your name will be mentioned for your hard work.

[Elite Ninja]

haha yah that's a pretty good list there remedy! I am a little sad not to see Kil Stage in there though :<

[remedy1502]

Originally Posted by Elite Ninja

haha yah that's a pretty good list there remedy! I am a little sad not to see Kil Stage in there though :<

That could go into the other usable songs that I forgot about lmfao. I noticed it as well a while after I posted. Obviously the list isn't set in stone and suggestions are appreciated. I just wanted to try and come up with a more balanced list to work with.

[One Winged Angel]

dat emote

[hi19hi19]

The stretchypanda mouth









dick goes where?

[remedy1502]

I mentioned this to Plan earlier, and I don't know if I'm on the right track with this, but it seems to me that Tier Points are almost like an alternate levelrank for everyone who isn't JUST starting. With the current lists, you get a good representation of the files from 7+, and you can see where you rank among the community, without having to play every goddamn song. Cause there's a lot of songs now, which can be extremely overwhelming for new players. I'm not sure if that's where you're going with this, but I kinda like that idea~
With this in mind, I find it absolutely ridiculous to think that tier points should be only the hardest files in each difficulty. That is a very poor representation of what we have in-game.

/2cents

ps I know we aren't really doing it yet, but how are we thinking for tier reqs per difficulty? Since we CAN go up to 99, how much of that are we going to use?