Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[Shamo0]

Originally Posted by dogdude84

You just missed one that was hosted by korny! :O

Crap, well i'll be in the next fur sure

[bacalaoboy]

Its annoying how one of my friends claims that playing with no items is illegitimate even though it is usually a tournament setting (which is what everyone tells me) and IF he beats me, he would keep saying that he (as Snake) is better than me in all aspects of the game, and say he "DESTROYED!!!!" me, even though it's by 1 life. When he loses, he calls it "heavy BS" and challenges me to CoD4, football, or some other ridiculous thing (not saying that CoD or football is ridiculous) to cover up his loss. Anyone know someone like that?

[korny]

Tell your friend that items are illegitimate and that tournys are held without items. You're friend sounds like an idiot to me.

[bacalaoboy]

Thank you, someone agrees with me. Maybe you should completely own him (even with the papers and forms signed. Get it? Get it? heh.) on wi-fi so he can stop trash talking so much. Btw, who do you play with mostly?

[korny]

I would gladly own him. My main is game and watch.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by korny

Tell your friend that items are illegitimate and that tournys are held without items. You're friend sounds like an idiot to me.

I don't think illegitimate is the right word in this case.

Neither is illegitimate. One method is preferred for tournaments and the like to remove unfair elements. This however, also takes away certain elements which are not particularly unfair, but is done as a simple blanket to make things simpler. Playing with items on, however, is as the game was designed-- it was designed with these items in mind. Many of them might be unfair, but the designers wanted them to be used. If they didn't want players using items, they would have not even bothered creating items in the first place. However, at the same time, they recognized the potential desire to play without them, and as such, offered up the option to turn them off.

So there you have it, folks! It's all a matter of opinion. Items on or items off, both are legitimate methods of play. Now, depending on the person, they may reject a loss on the grounds of it being due to items, and others might reject a loss on the grounds that items were not turned on, but either way, neither is illegitimate.

[korny]

Items make the game more fun to some people, but in determing who is the more skilled player in a 1 on 1 match they are in a sense illegitimate. You should go to smashboards.com to fully understand the concepts of how items make a match of determining skill illegitimate, because they do a much better job at explaining it than i ever could.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by korny

Items make the game more fun to some people, but in determing who is the more skilled player in a 1 on 1 match they are in a sense illegitimate. You should go to smashboards.com to fully understand the concepts of how items make a match of determining skill illegitimate, because they do a much better job at explaining it than i ever could.

I really am thinking that we're meaning it in different sense. Like, you could consider a loss illegitimate, but that wouldn't make it absolutely illegitimate. It's all a question of opinion-- the only absolute here is defined by the game itself, and the game doesn't mark wins with items as non-wins (or even not counting them in records like they do for Special Brawls).

[MystictheHedgehog]

It may prove that your better at combat, but that's it.

Fighting without items, to me, just proves your skill in just plain combat. It doesn't prove who the better player, but rather, who the better player is without items. Throw items into the formula, and you murder your opponent, then you can say your skill is that much higher because you are able to overcome the aspect of items being in the arena WHILE fighting.
Just my opinion there.

But it's as afrobean said, neither are illegitimate.

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by korny

Olimar is SO easy to edge guard against. Once you knock him back far enough and steal the edge it's all over for olimar. There's absolutely nothing he can do against it.

lol False. It's a lot harder than you think. Thats if your playing an Olimar that knows how to play.

Originally Posted by MystictheHedgehog

It may prove that your better at combat, but that's it.

Fighting without items, to me, just proves your skill in just plain combat. It doesn't prove who the better player, but rather, who the better player is without items. Throw items into the formula, and you murder your opponent, then you can say your skill is that much higher because you are able to overcome the aspect of items being in the arena WHILE fighting.
Just my opinion there.

But it's as afrobean said, neither are illegitimate.

So when an explosive falls right next to you in the middle of your down smash and you die, do you think your opponent has more skill? Don't be silly and don't say that doesn't happen. I played with items like 5 times since brawl has been out and something like that has happened twice. THAT is why items are not in tournament play.

[korny]

I've play against a very skilled olimar. Skilled or unskilled it doesn't matter. When knocked back far enough to where he's forced to use his tether recovery, he's doomed. Nothing you can do about it.

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by l2awr

So when an explosive falls right next to you in the middle of your down smash and you die, do you think your opponent has more skill? Don't be silly and don't say that doesn't happen. I played with items like 5 times since brawl has been out and something like that has happened twice. THAT is why items are not in tournament play.

If you had more skill, you wouldn't have taken damage before that happened. Thus, the explosive wouldn't have killed you.

Oh your statistics are so perfect. 40% of the time, people die from explosives.

You know, I wish that were true. It would make All-Star on Intense a lot easier for me if my opponents blew themselves up.

I've thrown about 5,000 items since I got brawl and I've blown myself up with an item maaaybe four times. And none of those killed me because I'm good enough to not take enough damage such that this event would kill me.

[GuidoHunter]

Originally Posted by Squeek

If you had more skill, you wouldn't have taken damage before that happened. Thus, the explosive wouldn't have killed you.

Don't be ridiculous.

Unless you're destroying your opponent (read: not a test of your skill), you're going to take damage. It's understood.

I've no problem with your claiming two different measures of skill, one with items and one without, but you can't deny that items introduce an effectively inevitable degree of randomness to the game. Even great amounts of skill cannot overcome bouts of RNG hate, hence the two measures of skill and the division of respect between them.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Squeek]

Yes, it's random.

Any good player will tell you that skill is all about dealing with luck.

Seriously. Ask ANY professional poker player.

Now that random tripping is in the game, are you going to blame a loss on randomly tripping? You can't control it and it's something that will potentially make you lose. But what if you're on the opposite side and you win the match thanks to your opponent tripping? "Bad luck, that's all it was. But you still lost. Next?"

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter

I've no problem with your claiming two different measures of skill, one with items and one without, but you can't deny that items introduce an effectively inevitable degree of randomness to the game. Even great amounts of skill cannot overcome bouts of RNG hate, hence the two measures of skill and the division of respect between them.

Introduce?

Other elements might not be TRULY random, but they affect the player in the same way. You must learn to react to things which may or may not be totally unexpected. When you fight an opponent, you can only guess if they'll dash at you, jump at you, play defensive, etc. By the same regard, when playing with items, you can only guess what item will come up, when it will come up, or where it will come up. Those same 3 factors are the same things which are unknown about your opponent's actions: what, when, and where. It's the same idea, just that one is RNG, while the other is triggered by programmed "AI" or a player's button presses. The only difference here is that it is potentially possible to read the actions of your opponent to better allow you to guess their next move, or in extreme cases, motivate them into a certain action yourself. But even so, it's a truly unknown element, and the unknown is the very reason why items aren't allowed in competitive play.

Also, I mused briefly on the idea of pure skill contests in the tournament thread, and I noticed something that I had previously not considered. Different characters have different advantages/disadvantages, and as such, certain characters are better suited for certain things than others. This means that it's not PURE skill even in Final Destination with items off. Think about Olimar for instance. If you're playing as Olimar, and you get knocked off the stage, then fail to recover because your opponent grabbed the ledge to make your tether fail, does that mean that they're more skilled than you? No, it means that they exploited an inherent weakness in the character. Or consider back in the pre-Brawl days with Yoshi. Or how about differences in weight/speed. If someone is able to win a fight because they can tank more damage without dying, does that mean they're more skilled? Yes, the characters are balanced, at least to a degree, but they still have these same advantages/disadvantages which can be exploited to cause victories from sources other than pure skill alone.

@Squeek: excellent example about the tripping. Notice that a good skilled player will be able to minimize their potential damage they may receive from a trip, while a poor player will be leaving themselves wide open. An especially skilled player could even use themselves tripping to goad their opponent into a trap, turning what would have been a major disadvantage into an advantage.

tldr version: Skill is not always the only component of victory, even if you try with all of your might to make it that way.

[Telvanni_guard]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

The only difference here is that it is potentially possible to read the actions of your opponent to better allow you to guess their next move, or in extreme cases, motivate them into a certain action yourself.

Random can't be defined as a person. When it's a person using the controls the word isn't random actions, it's thought out actions. In other words skill. You don't know what's going to happen, but it's not like it happens out of the blue. There's a thought that triggered in that person's mind to do it. Be it spontaneous or not.... At least that's what I've been told.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Telvanni_guard

Random can't be defined as a person. When it's a person using the controls the word isn't random actions, it's thought out actions. In other words skill. You don't know what's going to happen, but it's not like it happens out of the blue. There's a thought that triggered in that person's mind to do it. Be it spontaneous or not.... At least that's what I've been told.

My point was that even the most skilled players still have the unknown facing them when they play an opponent, be it CPU or live player. Nothing is truly random anyway, and while it is more likely that a person may be able to read the actions of their opponent (especially on poorly programmed "AI"), it cannot be predicted absolutely, and as such can be any number of undetermined outcomes coming forth. Yes, you can guess whether your opponent will dash, retreat, jump, etc., but in the same regard, you could just guess if an explosive is going to spawn in front of you while you're using your forward smash.

This is all in relation to the idea that "randomness" is only introduced by items. I say that it's simply heavily magnified, and the unknown factor is always present, just normally not in any particularly unfair way. In fact, in the same regard, not all items make for an unfairly tipped balance of a fight. There are a handful of items that when used can only truly tip the balance in favor of the player who is skilled at item use.

[flash dualist]

Im good at kirby.

[masterhickle]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

My point was that even the most skilled players still have the unknown facing them when they play an opponent, be it CPU or live player. Nothing is truly random anyway, and while it is more likely that a person may be able to read the actions of their opponent (especially on poorly programmed "AI"), it cannot be predicted absolutely, and as such can be any number of undetermined outcomes coming forth. Yes, you can guess whether your opponent will dash, retreat, jump, etc., but in the same regard, you could just guess if an explosive is going to spawn in front of you while you're using your forward smash.

This is all in relation to the idea that "randomness" is only introduced by items. I say that it's simply heavily magnified, and the unknown factor is always present, just normally not in any particularly unfair way. In fact, in the same regard, not all items make for an unfairly tipped balance of a fight. There are a handful of items that when used can only truly tip the balance in favor of the player who is skilled at item use.

One aspect of professional players that makes them professional is their ability to read their opponents. While they won't always be able to read what is going to happen (and even if they can read what is going to happen, there are some situations that are not possible to get out of), a high percent of the time, they will. Another is their ability to overcome their character's weakness to another character (though always difficult, it's always possible).

That aside....I agree with you Afro. Items don't add randomness, they just increase the likelihood that something completely unexpected is going to happen.






So.....who here likes Bigglypuff? I sure do.

[Tonberry_Kid]

I started playing more as Metaknight, Pit and Wolf...

Gotta say, I'm getting pretty damn retarded with Metaknight.