02-8-2007, 10:00 AM | #61 | ||||
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
Apparently not (more later).
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"The fundamental problem in explaining the gaps in terms of an insufficient search or in terms of the imperfection of the record [i.e. the rarity of the fossilization procedure] is their systematic character - the fact that there are fewer transitional species between the major divisions than between the minor. Between Eohippus and the modern horse (a minor division) we have dozens of transitional species, while between a primitive land mammal and a whale (a major division) we have none" To whatever extent Denton is correct here, these would certainly not be the type of gaps one would expect from a straightforward Darwinian model. If we have one basic type arrive on the scene--with some evolution and variations--then we have a big gap between this and the next basic type, this fits more within the limited evolution model. Why is it that the fossilization process would only fossilize lots and lots of A's in addition to lots and lots of M's but no transitional forms in between--almost as if they never existed? It is this systematic pattern of gaps that cannot be satisfactorily accounted for merely by denoting the imperfection of the fossil record. The most straightforward expectation from a Darwinian viewpoint would be gaps that are spread around more evenly, but this is not quite what we see. Quote:
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Last edited by Tisthammerw; 02-8-2007 at 02:45 PM.. |
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02-9-2007, 11:23 AM | #62 |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
I don't really understand how evolution could be proven impossible through using random word arrangers.
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02-9-2007, 03:52 PM | #63 |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
"discredit creationism"? It has to be "credited" first, and there is no evidence, to my knowledge, supporting it.
Furthermore, I do know exactly what you mean by the nature of the gaps. But it is still a preposterous argument, not only because you ignore certain fundamental observations regarding the nature of evolution, but also because while you talk about "As" and "Ms", you don't define what distinguishes between these "types". As far as I'm concerned, showing evolution of different species, aka the the horse from its predecessors, IS going from "A" to "M". A different species is a different species is a different species. You're trying to say that "oh no way... you have to show me where in the fossil record it goes from Fish to Amphibian." But given that 1) Evolution of such dramatic differences that I think characterize what you are calling "types" (e.g. fish to amphibians) would, by the theory, take millions of years. 2) Preserved fossilization is a rare occurrence. It does not happen in one place for millions of years straight, to allow for these kinds of changes to be recorded. Therefore, it should not be surprising at all that what glimpses fossilization does provide us are not the entirety of the tree of life. Yet there are examples of natural speciation in the fossil record, and, as I mentioned earlier, it is an invaluable tool in showing how life forms became increasing more complex as time has gone on, a natural prediction of evolution. You've been essentially stating a "Kent Hovind" (the infamous young earth creationist who offered 250,000 dollars to show evolution between what he vaguely described as "kinds") argument. But it is ridiculous to assume that, given the gradual nature of evolutionary change and the hit-or-miss nature of fossilization, that such changes should be present in the fossil record, and that their absence weakens evolution. And let's not forget that the fossil record is but one piece of supporting record. The evidence of DNA conservation is perhaps the strongest evidence out there, and I've yet to see you explain away that. |
02-9-2007, 06:48 PM | #64 | ||
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
I'd just like to add that there are very good theories that explain the so-called gaps in the fossil record, such as punctuated equilibrium. It's also worth noting that the gaps in the fossil record are pretty small, actually. That's why punctuated equilibrium is pretty well accepted--it says speciation goes quickly compared to the rest of evolution. (Though in human terms, quickly is a smeg-load of a long time). That's why between species there are fewer fossils, but the transition between bigger groups is plenty documented.
Plus, you're totally right. Fossils are but one of the many piles of evidence. It's about consilience from many many lines of inquiry. Quote:
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02-10-2007, 04:17 AM | #65 |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
** disclamer ** i didn't read any posts after the initial
be sure to note the sources from which you study such things religious bias obviously plays a large role in the authenticity of the argument for example, smarter christians feed the following example to their herds with regards to philosophy! "Philosopher's say stuff like, you know, if god is all powerful, then can he create a rock that is so heavy that even he can't lift it?" HMMMM I think everything boils down to the concept of faith. faith in something or faith in nothing or faith in a fraction between something and nothing, or faith in a fraction that varies according to an infinite timescale from nothing to something, or faith in the random seed that drives the thought. Maybe when computers can trace back to the first occurence of mutation, we will understand things better. hopefully not using binary by then! so i guess you are questioning the faith you were brought up in!! OH NO, DONT LOSE FAITH, you will burn in hell for acting the same way without believing in JC.... good luck
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02-10-2007, 01:54 PM | #66 |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
**disclaimer** I didn't read any posts between #64 and this one.
It's only four pages; you can suffer through that. --Guido http://andy.mikee385.com |
02-14-2007, 05:23 PM | #67 |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
Here's a riddle. What is this successful mutation that has fur, is not a bird that lays eggs and has a poisionous dew claw.
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02-15-2007, 01:25 PM | #68 | |||||||||
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
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To recap the "type" of pattern I'm referring to... Quote:
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B-C-------------GG-------------HH------J---------K--------MMMM-N But instead the pattern is more like 2: B-CCCC-DD-----------------------------------------------LL-MMM-N We have small gaps between species, we have large gaps between major groups. The rarity of the fossilization procedure explains why the quantity of fossils is smaller, but not the quality. Note that the number of letters in 1 and 2 are equal--what's different is the pattern. 1 is the pattern of gaps we would expect if evolutionary transition occurred. 2 is the pattern we would expect if only limited evolution occurred. Why is it that the pattern of the gaps is more akin to 2 than to 1--almost as if there was no such transition? This is a question that the mere imperfection of the fossil record does not answer. Why? Because the rarity of the fossilization process explains the quantity of the fossils, not the pattern (note that pattern 1 and pattern 2 had equal amounts of "fossils"). Quote:
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Another thing to remember is this. DNA might support the theory of common descent, but it does not tell us anything about the mechanism used to create those changes. Here an ID adherent could claim that artificial intervention is the mechanism, not mutation and natural selection. Last edited by Tisthammerw; 02-15-2007 at 04:17 PM.. |
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02-15-2007, 02:24 PM | #69 |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
To your last point, they could claim it, but they'd have no supporting proof other than "well the other guys haven't proved their thing yet so we must be right" which is drenched in fallacy.
I would question your assertion that the pattern is the #2 that you have provided. My thinking and my sources (essentially my intro bio textbook and wikipedia's page) say that the pattern is closer to that of #1. |
02-15-2007, 04:14 PM | #70 | |||
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
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Part of the problem with "evidence" here is that the empirical data do not announce what they are evidence for. They have to be interpreted. The fact is that we have two theories that explain the data, each accusing the other of not having "evidence." Quote:
Also, you might want to look at the "Cambrian Explosion." We have many, many fossils of e.g. trilobites (and various soft-bodied species, e.g. sponges and worms) but huge gaps between them and their evolutionary ancestors. Some have tried to explain this away via noting that the earlier forms would be soft-bodied and thus more difficult to become fossilized. While it is true that soft-bodied creatures are more difficult to fossilize, this is not a complete explanation--especially since the majority of Cambrian fossils are soft-bodied and we have a great paucity of transitional forms linking them to their evolutionary predecessors (like Pre-Cambrian single-celled organisms). Even soft-bodied creatures can become fossilized, and this variant of “the imperfection of the fossil record” (i.e. that not every animal gets fossilized) does not explain the pattern of the gaps we see here. Why? Because with the Cambrian explosion, we have a clear case of pattern 2. Last edited by Tisthammerw; 02-15-2007 at 04:53 PM.. |
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02-15-2007, 04:49 PM | #71 | ||
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
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02-15-2007, 05:03 PM | #72 |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
I already cited the relevant passage from by bio textbook. I know wikipedia is a weak source obviously, but I really don't feel like going beyond casual research.
To settle this, we would have to know what the rarity of fossilization really means. Maybe it means that stuff like pattern 2 DOES happen. Maybe there could be millions of years of evolutionary record potentially unrecorded, or recorded and then subsequently wiped out. The scientists you cited earlier said nothing about these gaps disproving evolution in those passages, they merely point out the presence of these gaps. And a creationist could not use that retort. A creationist has the burden of proving that an intelligent designer exists and then created arbitrarily and perhaps sporadically every living thing. An evolutionist merely has to show that a system exists where by species change over time autonomously. And since this system HAS been shown to exist, and has mountains of evidence in favor of it, the likelihood is great that it is correct. The evidence does not really have to be interpreted at all. Are there changes in DNA? Yes. Do these changes introduce changes to the organism and future generations? Yes. Is this a system whereby a species can change over time? Yes. (the same works out for natural selection). One could argue that, "Oh well, sure, evolution is happening but God is just directing it" or whatever. In that case, God becomes synonymous with the laws of nature, and as far as I'm concerned, redundant. |
02-15-2007, 08:50 PM | #73 |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
To what time periods do those fossil gaps appear? I'm curious if it's during one of our mass extinctions or not...
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02-16-2007, 11:40 PM | #74 | ||||||||
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
May I ask where exactly did you cite the passages that pertain to the pattern of the gaps in the fossil record? Perhaps you could provide me with a post number?
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Still, keep in mind that creation does predict pattern 2 of the fossil record--evolution must merely explain it away. Can you then understand why some scientists (albeit a minority) would reject orthodox evolution in favor of some form of creationist theory? This is not to say that creationist theories don't have their problems, only that the evidence is not all one-sided in favor of either theory. Quote:
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Bear in mind, I think evolution better explains plenty of things than creation (or at least lower-tier creationism) e.g. the order of the fossils. However, I think we should recognize that the evidence is not all one-sided in favor of either theory. Whether it merely be bad coincidence or otherwise, creation happens to predict some data that evolution does not. Quote:
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02-17-2007, 10:34 AM | #76 |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
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02-17-2007, 11:14 AM | #77 | ||
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
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02-17-2007, 04:44 PM | #78 |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
It's not hard to invent stories to make any idea seem true. No matter what facts say you have to realize that those "facts" are only science. Almost everything in science is just theories, nothing is proven. There are some things in science I believe are true but I also believe in God. It doesn't make sense to believe just one or the other. If you really think about it scientists have to true evidence of what happened millions of years ago. And you can't deny that the Bible is true, it's not everyday people make up huge stories like that.
If you want to make your choice on to believe in Creationism or Evolution I'd say it would be best to study both. Don't believe what science says right away. Just remember that. Last edited by das1ngerplayer; 02-20-2007 at 07:34 PM.. |
02-17-2007, 04:53 PM | #79 | |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
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02-19-2007, 04:49 PM | #80 | |
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Re: A big problem for Evolution?
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