Official Tier Point System Thread

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by bmah

I think the approach for defining the boundaries of accessibility is to make a list of "troublesome" songs from difficulty 8 and up. You can't avoid the subjectivity in this part, so you'll have to make do.

I like this idea. I can think of quite a few within each difficulty level too:

9s:
Legendary Etude - 2nd half of the file is fairly troublesome
Ivaltek - strange patterns
Tell Me A Story (Compendium Mix) - 2nd half
Forsaken Neon - speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed

10s:
Southern Cross - all around technical [ex-FMO]
DIDJ PVC - awetlgslhjtlhkj bursts
Vertex Beta - Streaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam [ex-FMO]
M.A.M.A. - obvious reasons
Kanon-Kanon - heated debate between 10/11 existed for this one

just a generalized list, for now - I'm sure the community can come up with a fairly solid list, although subjective arguments will follow.

[i love you]

Attention people, we have a new plan now.

We are going to keep this current list that we have now but we are also going to add in 20 Very Difficult files, 30 Challenging files, and 30 Very Challenging files so that will add up to a total of 200 songs in the tier point list. Also, just to let you guys know, we are not going to choose any blue note syndrome files or any widget files for any of these excluding the FMO/FGO files. We like iironiic's idea but it will need some system work so for now, we are just going to do it this way until further notice.

PS: The main reason why we made this update a lot stricter previously is that already a few people were about to get MAX tier point, which is a bad thing as a measure of top-end player's skill.

[jimerax]

well ok we'll determine additional req songs first.

The amount of req songs is still acceptable I guess.

criteria for those:
- quality files (well-synced/structured)
- possibly medium length (1:00-3:00 is preferable)
- possibly have some unique, but not awkward features (aka we want various type of songs)
- non secret, purchased, token, s-token songs
- files that have correct noteskin, and no BG

[remedy1502]

I was writing a very long post of my opinion but I guess it doesn't really matter lol.
Basically this:
Lots of people not good at FFR (these people don't post so we don't really think of them, while still being an active player)
Tier points good measure for personal improvement since you can see the number rise each time you get a point.
The earlier you see the first one, the better (while still out of reach for players just starting, tier points should be worked towards, not easy in the slightest)

Anyway, I improved a ton after getting my first TP (FC on ESC, who else had that as their first lol) only because I saw the improvement. Levelrank has too many songs to look at. Whereas TPs just go up and up as you get better. Easier to give yourself goals imo. Look at the list and say "ok I will FC/PA/AAA this song today." Or, "I will get X number of tier points today."

I like that some 8s, 9s, and 10s are being added though. Just like when the tier list was first created. Sure, people get better, more people get good at hard songs. But just as we get better, newer players take our spots down below. They deserve the same chance of achieving TPs like we did.

[TheSaxRunner05]

This change probably wont affect the top players, who have AAA'd these songs anyways, and give a chance for people like me to get non-Mashed TP

Just looked and saw the TP list became tighter on the high songs - good idea, even though it put me from 22+TP down to three (Still mashed ones) =(

I'm looking forward to lower levels with tier points

[stavie33]

Alright, I've been thinking about this all day and have come up with what I 'think' is the best tier system we can have:

Tiers are nothing more than skill ranks, like how in Halo you can go from private to Captain to General, and COD has similar ranks too. I think we should make a 6 tier system, each tier having it's own 'badge' displayed on your profile, where everyone who joins FFR starts at 'Novice' Tier. Certain tier point standards, like usual, are set to determine what tier you're in.

The tiers req songs would include ALL songs of difficulty 65 and up. Each song has tier point reqs as usual, from 3/3 (challenging songs) to 9/9 (FGO's). FGO's will have special extremely hard reqs I will get to later, to prevent mashers from getting a lot of points, i.e. FC reqs for all FGO's will be gone. Each tier would correspond to a certain difficulty of song reqs in general, ex. Tier 1 FFR Guru FGO, Tier 2 FFR Master would correspond to FMO, Tier 3 Expert would refer to VC, Tier 2 to C, and God Tier (Tier 0) would require you to have every tier point except for like, 8. It would be made so only 2-3 people should EVER be in it. Okay, basic breakdown:

Tier rank values (Tier points required to be in a certain tier) should require your tier point total to be greater or equal to:

The sum of every songs possible points BELOW this tier (ex. FFR Master would require you to have a total of more than every available point of all songs on the list under FMO)
+
The sum of 3/4 of the points available in all songs in corresponding tiers (ex. FFR Master would require you to have 3/4 of the available points for all FMO songs)
+
The sum of 1/4 of the points available in all songs ABOVE the corresponding tiers (ex. FFR Master would require 1/4 of the total points available for FGO and 13 difficulty songs)

So points required for Tier 2 would be:

All combined points of VC and lower songs + 75% of the points of all FMO songs + 25% of the points from all FGO + songs

This way it's a good measure of your skill, average wise, and if you can't do some FMO's, you can make them up for with better FGO scores and AAA bonuses.

To PREVENT MAKING UP FOR POINTS IN A TIER BY MASHING FGO'S, FGO'S WILL HAVE ONLY PA REQS, NO FC REQS. FC points still required, but instead of 2mil points or more for 4 and FC for 5, it would be like for WWE, score equivalent to 100 or fewer clean FC for 5 points, etc. FN would have like, score equivalent to 40 or fewer clean for 5 points, going up to 8 for a AAA. All FGO's will be at least 8 points, max 9 points.

Every time people rank up, as I said, they get a new badge which I think 'should' come with some prize of some sort, either additional credits (which I disagree with) a new song, or maybe just a new customizable forum thing and forum title along with the badge.

This system I think has a good average of your ability in comparison, and allows people to start getting tier points as low as AAA Challenging songs. Reqs would make sense, of course, as in all C songs would be out of 3 points, 1 for an SDG, 2 for 3 or fewer, 3 for a AAA, and so on for each difficulty.

Also, cool badges and forum titles lead to incentives for 'some' people to want to try to get better tier scores, like prestiging in COD and stuff

What do you think?


for this thread

[TC_Halogen]

It's been stated that not every song is going to be used.

Another way that I see tier points is like "achievements", in that you obtain these achievements and get points that correspond to it, and while the tiers should be meant to allow breathing room for mid-level players (like those who are finding it difficult to bridge the skill gap from AAAs a 10 to AAAs an 11), they shouldn't allow for the player to get them easy.

One good thing that came about this tier update was the removal of the FC requirement; it had an arbitrary score requirement that was actually possible to get under if you needed to mash, which could be fairly upsetting. Achievements like this should be entirely score based (raw would be great, but that also requires a new database entry and a bit more server load). Now:

Tier rank values (Tier points required to be in a certain tier) should require your tier point total to be greater or equal to:

1 - The sum of every songs possible points BELOW this tier (ex. FFR Master would require you to have a total of more than every available point of all songs on the list under FMO)
+
2 - The sum of 3/4 of the points available in all songs in corresponding tiers (ex. FFR Master would require you to have 3/4 of the available points for all FMO songs)
+
3 - The sum of 1/4 of the points available in all songs ABOVE the corresponding tiers (ex. FFR Master would require 1/4 of the total points available for FGO and 13 difficulty songs)

So, if a potential Tier 2 player was sitting on the borderline of Tier 1, but for some reason couldn't do well on a single particular song somewhere in the Tier 3 area, they wouldn't be allowed to progress? Am I gathering this correctly? If so, I'm not entirely sure I'd support that simply because it has no room for error.

Again, this is only assuming that I'm reading it correctly - if not, please explain to me.

I think bmah has the right idea on picking troublesome 8s and 9s, the songs are difficult but attainable.

There's a few concepts as to how tiers should work now - let's take a look at them all and see what the community likes best and then we can figure out how to set it up.

iironiic
krunkykai22
TC_Halogen
-Structure idea
stavie33

[ichliebekase]

Originally Posted by jimerax

well ok we'll determine additional req songs first.

The amount of req songs is still acceptable I guess.

criteria for those:
- quality files (well-synced/structured)
- possibly medium length (1:00-3:00 is preferable)
- possibly have some unique, but not awkward features (aka we want various type of songs)
- non secret, purchased, token, s-token songs
- files that have correct noteskin, and no BG

Some of the rules screwed me over for my list D: but oh well, back to thinking.

This is a combination list from Panic4Me and myself.

8's:

Sunshine Stone --> I think this song is fun, it's difficult for me, maybe not to others, but it kicked my butt last year in the official.
{Red Alert} --> Pretty difficult for only being a minute and change long.
July --> Fun to play, different patterns not seen all the time.
Tribal Revival --> Different kind of sound, jumpstream [I haven't really gotten on that yet] yea. There's a lot of FC's on this song, but not that many AAA's.
Clockwork Genesis --> Funky rhythms are always changing, you never know what's coming until it comes XD

9's:

{Rose} --> The hardest 9 in game and [imo] this song is a lot of fun. It'll be a real challenge to get TP's with this [which is what we all want].
Dokudenpa --> It's a long song, it's fairly difficult, and it's very enjoyable. [And Panic looooves this song XD]
AAA --> Enjoyable to listen to, overall a pretty difficult jumpstream.
Video Out A --> Awkward rhythms the entire song, good practice for them though.
Legendary Etude --> Only 106 AAA's, I'm assuming [I haven't played it recently] that it's a pretty darn hard song.
Lovely Lovely Lovely --> [Panic] It's fun, it makes me happy inside, and it's only a minute and a half XD it's a high nine so it a little challenge.

10s:

Classical Insanity --> It has most forms of styles of steps compacted in one song stream, jumps, jump chains, trills, jumpstream, etc.
BB Euro --> Good transition from 9s to 10s.
Vertex Beta --> Yay intense stream
Szamar Madar --> Enjoyable song, good for trickier stuff but won't kill your hands.
Jelly Roll Blues --> Partially for remembrance of Steve, partially because it's swing and I don't have any swing songs in my list.

[Vanilla Mnm]

i definitely like ironic's idea the best. the other ones aren't too bad, but i really like ironic's idea.

[ic0slay3r]

8's:

{Red Alert}
Max Forever - this songs need to be in the tier list period.
Horizon Remix - really awesome song
Tribal Revival

9's:

Sunny Side Up - really weird patterns, and really easy to screw up the PA.
Legendary Etude - one of the Hardest lvl 9 to AAA
Fei Longer
Ska Cha Cha
Torinouta - another Hard lvl 9

10's:

{Big Boss} - the song is short, fun and the bursts makes it hard to AAA
Pwntendo
moon_child -Go with the flow- one of the hardest lvl 10's and the jacks on the song makes this a really though song.
None will Scape or Souther Cross - Ex FMOs
Hero's Theme (w.i.p.)

If people want me to explain some of them I would be glad to do it, but right now I can't. This are just suggestions to what songs could be in the tier list.

[Superfreak04]

I personally don't even care about Tier Points. I only care about filling up my AAA bar lol. Besides, some players can be better than people in tier 0 because they don't play for tier points.
Ex: Top SM players who don't play FFR or something lol.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

It's been stated that not every song is going to be used.

Another way that I see tier points is like "achievements", in that you obtain these achievements and get points that correspond to it, and while the tiers should be meant to allow breathing room for mid-level players (like those who are finding it difficult to bridge the skill gap from AAAs a 10 to AAAs an 11), they shouldn't allow for the player to get them easy.

One good thing that came about this tier update was the removal of the FC requirement; it had an arbitrary score requirement that was actually possible to get under if you needed to mash, which could be fairly upsetting. Achievements like this should be entirely score based (raw would be great, but that also requires a new database entry and a bit more server load). Now:



So, if a potential Tier 2 player was sitting on the borderline of Tier 1, but for some reason couldn't do well on a single particular song somewhere in the Tier 3 area, they wouldn't be allowed to progress? Am I gathering this correctly? If so, I'm not entirely sure I'd support that simply because it has no room for error.

Again, this is only assuming that I'm reading it correctly - if not, please explain to me.

I think bmah has the right idea on picking troublesome 8s and 9s, the songs are difficult but attainable.

There's a few concepts as to how tiers should work now - let's take a look at them all and see what the community likes best and then we can figure out how to set it up.

iironiic
krunkykai22
TC_Halogen
-Structure idea
stavie33

No, it would be the SUM of the points, i.e. if they needed 450 points to get to tier 1, and there were 100 points for C's, 150 points for VC's, 50 points for FMO's, and 50 for FGO's required, and they couldn't get a point for a C song, so they had 99 + 150 + 50 + 50, they could progress to tier 1 by getting an additional point on any FMO/FGO song. It's the sum of the points, not the exact points, as in the number of points you have, regardless what songs you get them on, should add up to around that score, make sense? There would be room for error because if you can't AAA a certain C song, you can get points to make up for that from any other song in any difficulty, so you just need total points to equal it, so make up for missing points (ones like AAA's) by getting points on easier reqs on harder songs (getting below 40 goods on an FMO for example)

[MrMagic5239]

Sorry, AAA is off beat as all hell.


Still going to fight the fact that Ivaltek should be a 10, and in tier points.

[stavie33]

Songs that CLEARLY belong on the list below VC (though I think all songs 65+ should be on there like they used to):

if we have VD songs for 2 points:

Max Forever - 2/2 for AAA
Deep Breath - 2/2 for AAA (shouldn't have to explain why this ones here)
Laser Shooter (if it remains VD)
The Games we Played Part 2
Visions (Nrgyzed mix)

C songs:

Otter's Dance
Fei Longer
Washamoose's opening
Rose
Forsaken Neon
Over the Frail Dream
Ivaltek (why is this not VC?)
Synaxis Symphony
Legendary Etude
Games we Played Part 5

VC songs:

everything 73 and up

done?

[stavie33]

just noticed, iironic's idea is THE EXACT SAME AS MINE with less detail. As in, I completely agree with him because it's practically the same idea, we all start as novice and get tier points (or if we previously have them) and rank up. The only difference in my statement is how we define how many points we need to reach said tier, and that is my math equation that TC and other people misunderstand.

Once more, you don't need ALL the points below the division you need to get into, you need to have total points (from any song of any difficulty) greater than or equal to that of all the points lower than your tier, 3/4 of your tier, and 1/4 of the above tier.

[ic0slay3r]

IMO Max forever should be a 3/3, 2/3 Should be SDG or something.

[ichliebekase]

I was going to put MAX Forever in my list, but it didn't qualify in jimerax's requests [the 1:00 - 3:00 minute requirement]. It really should be up there, more of a 3/3 because it's a ridiculous song.

[Fantasticone]

Truthfully think this tier list has more than its fair share of painfully long files -_-, let's not add that please.

[ic0slay3r]

but for the lower lvl songs its like the only one. So I don't think its a bad addition, imo the file is a perfect addition to this tier list.

[i love you]

Don't worry about the requirements, we will handle those.

Also stave33, it's been years since Jimerax updated the R1 difficulties thread so that's out of the question for the VC files. We will most likely choose similar songs as stated on this thread.

PS: We are not going to be adding MAX forever