Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[zidart]

well i think this is like spamming diddy's bannanas or running away from pit, it might sound cheap and annoying but if you wanna win using these attacks then you might as well do so, i personally don't like doing this kind of stuff because when i'm battling with someone i like the other person to not get completely annoyed, i try to make the match enjoyable for both (or all of us), but i can't guarantee i won't do something cheap 100% of the time

[Relambrien]

I'm debating whether or not I should post this, seeing as how it could incite some trouble. But heck, I'll have faith in you guys, so don't go crazy and make me regret posting this:

Originally Posted by flame6753 @ Smashboards

Go to page 62 of your new May issue of Nintendo Power and read the second paragraph, which says...

Nintendo Power: This is one that a lot of hardcore Smash Bros. fans have long wondered about. Was the ablility to "Wavedash" in Melee intentional or a glitch?

Sakurai: Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period. With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn't a matter of, "OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?"
We really just wanted this game, again, to appeal to and be played by gamers of all different levels. We felt that there was a growing gap between beginners and advanced players, and taking that out helps to level the playing field. It wasn't a big priority or anything, but when we were building the game around the idea of making it fair for everybody, it just made sense to take it out. And it also goes back to wanting to make something different from Melee and giving players the opportunity to find new things to enjoy.

Essentially, wavedashing was discovered while Melee was in development. Its creation was not intentional, though its implementation was. The team consciously left wavedashing in the game (though they did not consciously create it), and it was taken out in Brawl to lessen the skill gap between players.

So before the whole "Proves-it's-not-a-glitch-oh-wait-yes-it-does" thing starts up, here's my take on it. I don't think you can really call wavedashing a glitch, but you can't call it intentional, either. It was something that was created by chance, but did not interfere with the developers' designs and thus was not removed. Sakurai certainly didn't put his "seal of approval" on it, but he didn't stamp it with the "omg glitch" tag either. Hopefully this settles the debate--it doesn't matter what you call wavedashing, glitch or exploit, the fact is that the dev team noticed it and just didn't care about it.

As for the effects on Brawl, here's where I'm getting worried. I believe I read a post of Squeek's somewhere (in a separate thread, mind you) about how casual games are going to be the death of the hardcore gamer. When the majority of the market is buying games like WarioWare, good, deep games are in less demand and thus will be much harder to find, and the overall quality of games will drop.

The reason this worries me is because this interview lends credence to the belief that Brawl was engineered to be more casual than Melee. Sakurai implied that he wanted to lessen the gap between skill level, which is highly indicative of making the game a casual party game. When one of your company's major franchises is moving toward casual, you can't help but wonder when the rest of the industry will follow.

[Afrobean]

in other words:

During Melee, the developers realized they left a hole in their physics engine but didn't think it was worth fixing.

The game came out, and players abused the **** out of this hole.

They begin work on the new game, AND CONSCIOUSLY REMOVE DIRECTIONAL AERIAL DODGES SPECIFICALLY TO CANCEL THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOR.

Trying to debate it or even bringing up the topic could serve nothing but to make yourself look stupid. They might have been aware of it, but if they had known what would come, they certainly would have done something about it. The simple fact that they fixed the issue in the next game is proof enough.

Also: **** you for thinking casual gaming is a bad thing.

[ducky285]

No one is arguing whether or not wavedashing was consciously taken out of Brawl because THAT much is apparent. It's that the removal signifies something about Nintendo's present and future business plans.

He didn't say casual was bad. He said it might become the trend in the industry. People who enjoy games with a lot of gameplay depth might be screwed if that comes to fruition. People who play competitive games in general fit into this group.

Gameplay depth comes at a price as it tends to requires a lot of dedication and knowledge to get the most out of it. People who play fighting games competitively fare better if they know all the ins and outs of the game they're playing. Someone who doesn't take their games as seriously as all that won't care enough to learn it or will be completely stumped.

Tell someone who has never played Street Fighter 3 how to use the parry system. Most people will be turned off since parrying is risky and requires precise timing. This is despite the game rewarding you immensely for taking the time to learn it. As a result, those people will just go home and play Street Fighter 2 while all the SF3 players who took the time to learn the game continue to play it. I'm not belittling those who can't figure out the parry. I can see where they coming from. If you just want to jump in and start playing, those types of techs are hurdles to their enjoyment of the game and not having to worry about it makes their gaming experience more fun. However, the people who took the time to learn it are probably enjoying it just as much, just in a different way.

In other words, the greater population of gamers lack the attention span (mostly consciously, I'm not saying you all have ADD and I'm NOT INSULTING ANYONE) to dedicate a large amount of their time to a game. A lot of you are content to play 4p FFA in Brawl with items on high. That's fine. Be happy and enjoy it. Just keep in mind that a lot people want a little more out of the game than all that, hence why Smash has a well organized, well developed competitive scene. We're not expecting everyone to follow that mentality (though there are elitists on both sides that are mainly in the minority).

Relamb's post servesnot to argue in favor of wavedashing, but to point out the attitude of Nintendo toward their games now. They make games so everyone can play them without fear of losing to people of much greater skill. They do this by minimizing the amount of advanced techniques (intentional or unintentional) that would allow those who take the time to learn them a sizable advantage.

It's a smart model, as it grabs a greater share of the market since people who would normally shy away from video games for fear of being overwhelmed by the learning curve or the possibility of losing to a skilled player. It's the pick-up-and-play model. It's been working for Nintendo so far and they will continue with it as long as it's profitable.

I, for one, like a little bit of complexity in my games. Shallow games are boring and lack replay value for me. A lot of people share this mentality but sadly (for us, at least..I'm not about to sit here and proselytize), we're the minority.

EDIT: I'd just like to add that Street Fighter 4 will completely abandon the parry system. The devs' reasoning? To make the game more accessible. See how Nintendo's business model is affecting other companies' decisions? Yes, it's one example. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm saying it's worth thinking about.

[Squeek]

I parry in sf3 because it looks cool and they give you points for it.

Also because for some Specials it's the only way to not die.

And hey, who says Brawl can't be complex without a physics engine abuse? Has anyone ever had the same battle play out twice? Hell, I guarantee you could take every match ever carried out from everyone around the world and you'd never have a mirror image.

Mario Kart is basic as hell because even without cheating (read: snaking), I can beat the AI every time I play the game. Brawl is complex because I can get better and better and better and still lose fights against the AI. No matter how good I get, there will always be something I don't expect about to happen that could turn the tide of the match.

And yes I admit I lose fights against the AI. Anyone who doesn't admit that is a liar.

And hey, all along I said that you play Brawl the way you want to play. Just don't try to cram your playstyle down other people's throats. Surely you can reach a compromise (which I've been trying to do) that works for both parties.

[Afrobean]

Squeek, most of us can beat level 9 in flat fair matches consistently every time. Even I (who is not well known for being skilled in this game) have only lost once I think and it was because of items or something stupid.

No items, level 9, 1 on 1, I'd always beat CPU.

And yeah, Brawl is plenty deep. In fact, I'd say it's even MORE deep than Melee in that there are more new characters, more new stages, more new items. There are even new physics abuses (such as a few characters up B, Peach's sliding turnip pick, etc.), just not any wide reaching as wavedashing (which simply wasn't all that wide reaching either considering that many characters simply couldn't slide very much).

[DarkManticoreX2]

Beat boss batles with every charachter today, 100 man melee is next.

Also did the stage builder challenges. (Most annoying and boring parts of the challenge wall). I think I have 3-4 blue blocks left, all 3 hammers, and maybe 10-12 trophies left to get.

Got all the SSE trophies too.

[korny]

I never have less than 2 lives against an AI.

[l2awr]

After playing thousands of Brawl matches you learn that Brawl is NOT deep. It is VERY repetitive and very slow. Go play thousands of matches with good people and you'll notice the same things happen every match.

[MalReynolds]

Yeah! Two players fighting!

Grrrarrr!

[zidart]

i don't agree with the AI thing the only way the AI has beaten me without items on final destinaton (i use it as a little warm up) is when i put random characters and i get a character that i never use.

wavedash is not on brawl, melee is dead so we can move on with that one.

and brawl might get repetitive if you play with the same character and the same person over and over and over again (about thousands of times) no.. that's still wrong because as humans we learn from our mistakes so by winning/losing thousands of times we can learn new strategies and new things, so brawl is indeed very deep and way deeper than melee. (specially in 4VS4 battles but i guess that not all of you enjoy that kind of battle).

and even with the decrease in the skill gab on brawl, the game is pretty much for the hardcore audicence in fact correct me if i'm wrong but even some casual gamers bought melee even though it had a bigger skill gab

[Squeek]

So you're all saying you have lost to the AI.

My statement wasn't "you always lose to the AI" or even "you occasionally lose to the AI". It's "you have lost to the AI".

Nobody has picked up the game starting from the N64 version and been undefeated.

Nobody can flawlessly run through All-Star Mode without ever dying once in 1000 matches. On any difficulty setting.

Nobody can flawlessly run through Boss Battles or 100-Man or 15-Minute or anything either.

[korny]

Well why don't we point out the obvious then.

[Squeek]

I mean, you all were saying the AI was SOOO EASY. If they were SOOOOOO EASY and SOOOOOO PREDICTABLE and SOOOOOOOOO BASIC you would have never lost.

My point was that the AI in Mario Kart is retarded and I never lost a match against them. Not even from the day I picked up the game. That makes Brawl much more complex, since I have lost to AI and still lose the occasional match. Probably because I play with items and they always drop right next to them.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by korny

I never have less than 2 lives against an AI.

I bet 3 vs 1 team 9 CPU with full handicap could beat you.

Also: items on, high. And Spear Pillar.

Originally Posted by l2awr

After playing thousands of Brawl matches you learn that Brawl is NOT deep. It is VERY repetitive and very slow. Go play thousands of matches with good people and you'll notice the same things happen every match.

That was quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. No two matches play the same, not even the same two players on the same stage with the same settings. Player's choose different tactics, and hey, players learn and get better, develop new techniques, and abandon ones that don't work as well.

Seriously, if you were to play me right now, I'd be more effective than if you had played me a month ago, and heck, I've achieved increased skill in player versus player matches without even abusing illogical holes in the physics engine.

i don't agree with the AI thing the only way the AI has beaten me without items on final destinaton (i use it as a little warm up) is when i put random characters and i get a character that i never use.

That's something else I forgot about. I did the same thing, and was still stomping the level 9 CPU in one on one, even when I got characters that I'm utter garbage with, with the CPU finally beating me when I got Jigglypuff on Spear Pillar (and even then it was a close fight that I was only losing by a small percentage when I got trapped in one of those bull**** beams and got raped).

specially in 4VS4 battles but i guess that not all of you enjoy that kind of battle

I hate free for alls. I always end up getting ragdolled around by everyone, and when I might be trying to engage someone in particular or am doing well in one way, I'll end up starting to get stomped from at least one of the others.

Like, it can be fun to do it sometimes, but just because someone can win in a free for all doesn't mean they're a better player. Many times I have seen players in the online anyone matches that simply suck, but end up winning anyway.

EDIT: @Squeek above: in all of Melee, I remained completely undefeated and played level 9 CPU a lot, but never actually got to play a real person. In N64, if I ever lost to a CPU, it was because of me setting the handicap too high, because I seriously did 3 versus 1 level 9 CPU and won every time.

And something else: I think the point is that if we go into a REASONABLE match and think "ok I won't lose this match", there is no way a level 9 CPU alone could defeat most of us. Some of us could probably even do 3 versus 1 level 9 CPU and win every time, but I frankly haven't been able to beat the CPU that badly since N64.

[korny]

Well ever since i've gotten the hang of this game the AI's have always been sooooo easy.

[zidart]

Originally Posted by korny

Well ever since i've gotten the hang of this game the AI's have always been sooooo easy.

indeed because the AI never learns.

and i like 4VS4 but those are just for fun.. a competetive 4VS4 is not really a good idea to do

[Squeek]

There's a good example.

Was playing All-Star with Lucas. Got to Marth/Ike. I didn't heal before the match at 50%. They knocked me off the edge downward, then jumped above me. So I had to angle my PK Thunder recovery almost exactly vertical. And it didn't work. I was off by a few degrees. I hit the underside of that left side ledge and bounced downward.

[Shoe The Almighty]

"a competetive 4VS4 is not really a good idea to do"

I don't know about that.

[souljaboy4]

Originally Posted by korny

Well ever since i've gotten the hang of this game the AI's have always been sooooo easy.

Dude you are not the best super smash brawl player on this site plus i can beat you any time the character i can beat anyone with is sonic i can do the 100 multi man brawl with out getting hit