Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

[Xandertrax]

One style of stepping involves slowing down the song a lot, to hear the stuff slower. However, at the slower speeds, you can hear a LOT more of slower bursts and whatnot. So that may account for some of the 'random' notes in games.

[Villiex]

I have a pretty strong stance on slowing down a song to hear things you couldn't hear at the normal rate... if you can't hear it at the normal rate, you shouldn't step to it because we are all playing it on the normal rate and that means... we can't hear it! It's really bad stepfiling. Again, that strikes me as an ego trip.

Anyway, I think I've made myself abundantly clear about what I hate in a stepfile.

[foilman8805]

I really hate 16ths stuck in the middle of 8th jumps at a pretty high BPM. AHEM.

It was either hit the 16ths and ruin PA on the rest of the jumps, or just don't even try to hit those 16ths. That has to be the hardest pattern I've ever come across in FFR.

EDIT: I'm talking about Scythe of 13.

[Xandertrax]

Sorry...?

[Villiex]

Yeah, the 16ths were a bad idea... plus, over my mashing the keyboard furiously, I can't even hear what you stepped them to. Not doubting they're there, but... anyway, it would have actually been really fun if it wouldn't have been for the 16ths. All the rest of the stuff was cool.

Also, I realized I was kind of doing myself a disservice by critiquing Final Step so heavily without having played the whole thing, so I finally sat through it. 4 minutes of incredibly bad ****, let me tell you. It only gets worse at it goes on. I'll write an actual review sometime later.

[t-rogdor]

Originally Posted by Villiex

I'll write an actual review sometime later.

Please dont.

[EnR]

I step all my files at 0.5 rate...oops.

That's not abd stepfilling, that's what you should be doing for a stepfile.

[Villiex]

Originally Posted by t-rogdor

Please dont.

Why not? Afraid it will make sense and deface everybody's beloved Final Step?

Originally Posted by Thread Title

Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Yeah, that's what this thread is for. Review is coming.

Originally Posted by EnR

I step all my files at 0.5 rate...oops.

That's not abd stepfilling, that's what you should be doing for a stepfile.

I didn't say stepping at a slow rate is bad stepfiling. Who doesn't do that? But when you go back and play your stepfile, you should realize there are things you stepped to that you just flat out don't hear anymore. Or, realize while listening to the slow rate that you probably can't hear this if you speed it back up.

[t-rogdor]

Originally Posted by Villiex

Why not? Afraid it will make sense and deface everybody's beloved Final Step?

No.

I dont LOVE Final Step. I somewhat Enjoy it.

Also, im not in the mood for a flame fest/Trolling.

[Villiex]

I haven't flamed or trolled anyone here... and you still haven't given me a reason why I shouldn't.

[EnR]

I enjoy reading other players opinions on simfiles, review away.

[Izzy]

Theres parts of songs you need to slow down to hear better. Not that you cant hear it on 1.0.

[behanjc]

I slow down music to step it but only to ACCURATELY make a rhythm of things you can hear at the normal rate.

[Villiex]

Post.

Also, I'm a girl. And, there's no reason to "wreck" me because I haven't said anything other than my opinion. Also, I haven't given it a formal review yet. Not much to wreck me about yet... might as well wait for the review.

[stargroup]

Okay, before I even start,

Originally Posted by Villiex

...the problem is that I can't really analyze the files well because I don't have en editor to view them in. I have to try and do it midgame, which is a mental mess.

Pointing this out, you should not be critiquing files for a few reasons. (Commenting is fine, but critiquing, no.)
1. Since you neither represent the majority or the skilled (in either playing or stepping for that matter), your opinions will not be regarded very highly.
2. If you're having a mental mess just playing through the arrows, then why do you explain as if you have analyzed them before?
3. You're making too much of an effort to try to interpret the arrows. Yes, it's a game, and even though I say that some files do have depth to them, trying too hard to analyze the notes is still a stupid thing to do.
An exception to this would be if you were trying to learn or develop a certain style of stepping, in which close analyzation would be beneficial.

Now to point out what is wrong is all of your theories/opinions/whatever.

Originally Posted by Villiex

I understand wanting to step accurately, but... some stepfile artists seem like they're on an ego trip with how "accurate" they can be, sacrificing making the file flow or be any fun.

Stepping accurately makes a file fun for several reasons. The main reason for even playing these games is to hit notes on the keyboard that will follow the music. It is fun because you feel like you are, in a way, playing it. One way people accentuate this feeling is through layering. By finding a way for the player to follow more than one instrument, it becomes more exciting. Another reason for layering in the first place may be to highlight certain instrument parts in the background that would otherwise go unnoticed. If these background sounds make the song extremely fun, then following them should be even more so, if done correctly.

These step artists (hopefully most of them anyway) do not sacrifice flow when layering. If anything, they could be IMPROVING the flow by filling in gaps in the music where the lead instrument stops. Layering can provide the step artist with many ways to connect different ideas in the music that may be impossible otherwise.

Originally Posted by Villiex

Final Step is like a bunch of hands and quads that aren't really hands and quads, but instead, little 512th notes that are so jammed together that they look like hands and quads. It's a big finger spasm and it's not fun.

They may look like hands/quads to you, but a more skilled player can distinguish the rhythms, and play them as the step artist intended, providing the desired effect. If you were to just mash through the keys, true, you would be playing it, but you wouldn't be following the music as the step artist intended.

-Extra paragraph-
This leads to another philosophy. Why do step artists step songs? Why not just play other files and not have to go through all that work? One reason is because stepping is all about interpretation. If you give a bunch of people the same song to step, I guarantee all the charts will be different somehow. Maybe they'll be similar, or very close, but they will be different. This is because everyone hears the same song, but everyone sees different images when they listen to it. Stepping allows them to show how they want others to hear the music, and show them that they are skilled at listening for these things in the music. There's also the issue of scoring and the game itself, but I won't get into that.

Also, even if you're hitting the arrows as triples or quads, there's nothing wrong with it. Triples and quads may be used as necessary to fully express how the step artist wants you to play a file. If you can't hit them, get better, find a way to hit them, or don't play the file. This is why I think it's stupid for Tass to only allow hands/quads in hard files. Now that we have the privilege, we should be using it to its fullest potential, maximize its effectiveness, rather than limiting it.

Originally Posted by Villiex

I have a pretty strong stance on slowing down a song to hear things you couldn't hear at the normal rate... if you can't hear it at the normal rate, you shouldn't step to it because we are all playing it on the normal rate and that means... we can't hear it! It's really bad stepfiling. Again, that strikes me as an ego trip.

Anyway, I think I've made myself abundantly clear about what I hate in a stepfile.

Slowing the song does not serve this purpose. Any step artist that slows down the music just so he/she can plug in notes that nobody can hear is stupid. Slowing down a song mainly serves 2 major purposes: syncing, and making it easier to follow. Because FFR, SM, and general all RHYTHM games rely on timing, syncing is crucial. If you can follow a song but you can't sync well enough for the player to hit the keys when he/she should, then it makes it difficult or impossible for them to play the file. Slowing down the song allows people to exact their syncing, to make sure that the players are playing what they should. Sometimes even the littlest syncing makes the different between a seemingly random note and brilliant fun following a background effect. As said before, slowing also makes it easier to follow the music. This is generally just used however the step artist feels like, but it is usually a good idea to go through a song at a slower rate to make sure:
1. All the rhythms are correct.
2. Instruments are followed as desired.
3. Background effects and misc. stuff are not missed.

Back to Final Step. All the arrows followed something in the music the step artist intended. If need be, I'm sure behanjc can go into the editor and label each and every arrow. (Sometimes it's more vague, but for this particular file it's possible) Because of the pattern choice, it also flows, but of course it's not easy to see if you're not good enough to hit them accurately. Maybe you have trouble hearing certain sounds in the music, which can probably explain why you might be bad at stepping, considering EVERYTHING IN THIS F*CKING POST I hope that makes sense.

Now let's all agree that Final Step is one of the best files in FFR and go back to casual discussion/higher critique that actually contributes intellectually.

EDIT: Jesus that's a lot of writing O_O

[foilman8805]

Originally Posted by Xandertrax

Sorry...?

I've liked your other files. Teh Tricky was the most notable, but I just could not deal with Scythe. I'm not really bitching about it, I mean, hell, you did step it correctly, it's just that it's a very tough pattern to successfully PA.

[Villiex]

Eh, it's a long post and I read it all, and... I don't really feel like responding... but I will because I don't want you to have gone through the trouble of writing all that up and I just ignore it.

Originally Posted by stargroup

1. Since you neither represent the majority or the skilled (in either playing or stepping for that matter), your opinions will not be regarded very highly.

Originally Posted by EnR

I enjoy reading other players opinions on simfiles, review away.

Originally Posted by stargroup

2. If you're having a mental mess just playing through the arrows, then why do you explain as if you have analyzed them before?

...this didn't make much sense. Here, I'll explain it like this.

When I play the level, if my fingers are freezing because the patterns and PA crap thrown in are that awkward... I don't care how "accurate" it is, it's not fun. That's my opinion. I don't expect you to agree with it, but don't try to act as if I'm not entitled to it because of ignorance or whatever else, please.

Originally Posted by stargroup

3. You're making too much of an effort to try to interpret the arrows. Yes, it's a game, and even though I say that some files do have depth to them, trying too hard to analyze the notes is still a stupid thing to do.

Really? That's odd because you're here supporting behanjc's decision to analyze the music closely enough to put the arrows down. If you're trying to say the game doesn't matter that much, that's one thing. But while we're here talking about the game and its stepfiles, I reserve the right to analyze the files, especially in a thread specifically intended to do so. It's not like I go into the files saying "What can I pick out that's bad." I have a nice list of files I've enjoyed on the first play and every play following. If I'm griping about a file, it's because something stood out to me before closely analyzing it; something stood out to me while just trying to play.

Originally Posted by stargroup

Now to point out what is wrong is all of your theories/opinions/whatever.

An opinion can't be wrong.

Originally Posted by stargroup

The main reason for even playing these games is to hit notes on the keyboard that will follow the music. It is fun because you feel like you are, in a way, playing it. One way people accentuate this feeling is through layering.

Of course I agree. There is a way, however, to layer so much that it becomes confusing to understand what you are pressing keys to. By having to play too many instruments at the same time, you lose the rhythm of one instrument because you have to break that rhythm by playing another instrument at the same time. Stepping to piano, layering jumps on snare hits, yes, that gives a good feel. But stepping to drums, then having an awkard 48th or 64th note intended to resemble the way somebody slides off their violin string and onto another is not fun.

Originally Posted by stargroup

Another reason for layering in the first place may be to highlight certain instrument parts in the background that would otherwise go unnoticed. If these background sounds make the song extremely fun, then following them should be even more so, if done correctly.

If they make it fun. This is an opinion. And you really have no business calling mine "wrong".

Originally Posted by stargroup

These step artists (hopefully most of them anyway) do not sacrifice flow when layering. If anything, they could be IMPROVING the flow by filling in gaps in the music where the lead instrument stops. Layering can provide the step artist with many ways to connect different ideas in the music that may be impossible otherwise.

Yeah, I understand filling gaps. That's a good thing. Just so you know, behanjc did that pretty well in some parts of Final Step.

Originally Posted by stargroup

They may look like hands/quads to you, but a more skilled player can distinguish the rhythms, and play them as the step artist intended, providing the desired effect. If you were to just mash through the keys, true, you would be playing it, but you wouldn't be following the music as the step artist intended.

Don't try to make this like I don't have any skill. Did you bother to look at the fact that I have over 450 AAAs and that I got a 7 Good on Final Step on my first time all the way through? I know how to play this game. Even when playing Final Step, though, there are some arrows so closely jammed together to create a "slide" effect on an instrument that it feels like a hand even when hit correctly.

Also, that "slide" effect is a stupid thing to do. I don't feel like I'm "sliding" at all because the press of a button isn't a sliding motion. Stepping to a hi hat is one thing, but I hate when people step to something like a sax note that "slides" up. I hate it. It doesn't feel right at all, even when I hit it right (and trust me, I know how to hit notes).

Not going to address the philosophy paragraph, but it was nice. Good points. I would never argue it.

Originally Posted by stargroup

Slowing down a song mainly serves 2 major purposes: syncing, and making it easier to follow. It is usually a good idea to go through a song at a slower rate to make sure:
1. All the rhythms are correct.
2. Instruments are followed as desired.
3. Background effects and misc. stuff are not missed.

Stepping to everything is not always good... I don't know why people don't understand this. I can show you a pretty good example of a file in which every last SOUND is stepped to, and it will not flow because you will be trying to play 4 or 5 different instruments. It doesn't flow that way.

Originally Posted by stargroup

All the arrows followed something in the music the step artist intended. If need be, I'm sure behanjc can go into the editor and label each and every arrow. (Sometimes it's more vague, but for this particular file it's possible) Because of the pattern choice, it also flows, but of course it's not easy to see if you're not good enough to hit them accurately.

I'm sure he can, but it doesn't make it fun.

Post a rebuttal if you want, but it's a little silly to try and prove someone's opinion to be wrong. I'd understand it if you had posted things about Final Step's actual arrows to defend it, but posting about how my opinions are "wrong" just makes you look egotistical.

[t-rogdor]

*Facepalm* Both of you stop it. This is turning (JUST AS I PREDICTED) into a flamefest.

Also, Villiex, i dont doubt that sometimes it's hard to hear parts of a song, when they were stepped slowly, at regular speed. Example, look at the random White notes in Hiro's Theme.

[Villiex]

Hey, you know, it's funny, Hero's Theme came to mind when thinking about PA crap. I understand most of the stuff in Hero's Theme, but the white notes... I dunno.

Also, I didn't flame stargroup even in my response. And I don't feel like he flamed me... I'm not mad at him or offended by anything other than him trying to call my opinions wrong. It's a discussion... that's what this thread is for. I just found it silly to try and pull my opinion apart. If you're going to pull anything apart, make it a simfile.

[foilman8805]

Originally Posted by t-rogdor

*Facepalm* Both of you stop it. This is turning (JUST AS I PREDICTED) into a flamefest.

I don't know how long you've been around forums, but this has to be the mildest flaming I've ever seen in my life...even for someone like stargroup who is known for his flaming. Neither of them went out of their way to berate one another, to be honest. So, try not to incite anyone with a statement like that.

EDIT: Ninja'd by VX.