Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[Matthew4444]

Gah, I never liked demos in a game. Maybe it's an OCD quality of myself, but seeing something incomplete in a game just annoys me. Or maybe it's the fact that I know I'll eventually get drawn into trying a few of them, then end up buying them. Oh well, I have VC points to spare (7900, yay Christmas).

[Hylian]

I can't wait to play the demo.

I'm going to live at gamestop.

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

Well, I don't think wavedashing is the heart of the issue here, but rather, play styles. There are people like Squeek who have the most fun just playing a wacky casual party game, which is fine. Then there are people like me who have the most fun by improving my skill as much as I can, and knowing as much as I can. I'm much more competitive.

I just don't appreciate it when others consider their way to play the "proper" way to play. If others want to play casually, that's fine with me. I just don't want to. The beauty of Smash is that with all the customization, you can play whatever way you want, and if people prefer different ways to play, then all the better.

This is totally untrue.

I put about as much time into Melee as any other guy. I was totally obsessed with the game. I probably put more time into Melee than all of my other Gamecube games combined. All 42 of them.

I don't play it as a fun party game. I play it just like you do; I compare my skill against others whenever possible. It just happens that my friends all hate Melee and I'm forced to play against bots, so all I really could do was play the campaigns on Very Hard with every character or play 3 vs 1 matches against level 9s or Cruel Melee. Before you jump down my throat and tell me that's not real skill, it is. If I can't play against other people, how else would you purport I test my skill at the game?

Can't you be good at a game without exploiting the engine? That's all I am asking. I never cheated (as I see it, cheating is anything against what the developers intend for gameplay) and I did just fine for myself.

[Aleste]

Only a few more days for the japanese release. Does anyone think they'll stop the weekly updates after that? it would make sense if they did, since the whole game is going to leak all over the internet. But *shrug*

[Squeek]

I don't think the updates will stop. Just the teaser-like updates. The later updates will probably be like "did you know that you could do this with the game?" or "hidden character! here are hints on how to unlock it!"

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by Squeek

Can't you be good at a game without exploiting the engine? That's all I am asking. I never cheated (as I see it, cheating is anything against what the developers intend for gameplay) and I did just fine for myself.

The rest of your post I agree with, so this is the part I wanted to respond to.

As far as I'm concerned, if the developers put it in, as long as it's not totally broken, then it's legal. Particularly if it actually helps the game.

Take for instance, two exploits. Exploit A is a technique which has a noticeable effect, is a completely new type of mechanic, and has an excellent skill-to-reward ratio. That is, there is a wide range of levels at which the exploit can be used, and its effectiveness varies accordingly. (Note: this applies to a lot of techniques in Melee; I don't want people saying I'm talking only about wavedashing here. The concept is the same across any game)

Exploit B is pretty much an insta-win button. It's fairly easy to pull off, and so it turns matches into "Who can set up Exploit B and pull it off first?"

Exploit A is good for the game. It helps stimulate competition and adds a new layer of depth and strategy. Thus, it should be used, regardless of whether or not it was intended by the developers, as it actually helps the game. Exploit B is bad for the game. It makes things boring and one-dimensional, and should obviously be banned.

The way I see it is this: you cannot create a perfect game with a couple hundred people. The community that plays the game causes it to develop and evolve until it reaches its maximum potential (or, in some cases, causes the game to spiral downward as things like Exploit B are found and used). If the community can make competition better by doing something the developers never intended, then that's awesome. They just made the game even better than the developers thought it was.

"Healthy" exploits, which are good for games and help make them better, should be used.
"Unhealthy" exploits, which harm games and create very shallow depth and one-dimensional strategy, should be banned.

Just because it's an exploit doesn't mean it's bad. The way the developers intended for a game to be played isn't necessarily the most fun way, or the most "healthy" way. That's where you and I differ.

[Squeek]

So you're basically saying in a game like Mario Kart, where the entire point of the game is to drive around a track throwing and dodging various items, it's perfectly OK to turn it into "who knows how to Snake the most to completely blow away from the rest of the pack, making the possibility of getting hit by an item completely null?"

You and I come from two different worlds. As someone who used to actually code flash games, I hated it when people began exploiting the way I made the game to get high scores. You know why? It means they belittle the very concept of the game I had just to get a better score than the people who play legitimately. So I had to spend even more time trying to fix the exploit, but of course, they'd get around it anyway.

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by Squeek

So you're basically saying in a game like Mario Kart, where the entire point of the game is to drive around a track throwing and dodging various items, it's perfectly OK to turn it into "who knows how to Snake the most to completely blow away from the rest of the pack, making the possibility of getting hit by an item completely null?"

I've never played Mario Kart competitively, so I don't know just how effective snaking is, its relative difficulty, or anything like that, so I can't really say whether or not I agree that snaking should be legal. However, I can make these generalizations...

If it's easy to pull off and has ridiculous benefits, so much so that everyone ends up relying entirely on snaking, then it's bad for the game.

If its effectiveness scales with the user's skill, and isn't so broken as to necessitate it in most cases, then it's good for the game.

From how you describe it, it's probably the former, but since I've never played, I can't be sure.

And as for what you said about people exploiting your code, while I can't exactly give a proper analogy from my own life, I can imagine my own reaction in your situation. I'd be ecstatic about people finding exploits in my code. Why? Because it means they like the game enough to actually go out and find them, and learn to use them properly. Now, whether or not I fix it depends on whether or not it appears to help or hurt the game. If it basically allows the user to bypass most levels or be nearly invincible, then I'll fix it. But if it adds another option to the player's arsenal, with similar effectiveness to other tactics, then I'll leave it in.

[Squeek]

People who hack games don't like the games, generally.

People who exploit flash games to get on the high scores list don't like the flash game. They just want to brag to their friends.

[Relambrien]

I believe AR qualifies as hacking, yes? You'll find that the majority of AR users really enjoy the games they're using the AR on. Seriously, the ones who hack games in that fashion are generally the most devoted fans.

And I wasn't specifically talking about flash games in my example, just games in general. And besides, if a game's really esoteric and unknown, as most flash games are, what's the point in bragging about it? Though, you could just tell all your friends about it. But when they see a massive score, the first thing they're going to think is "BS."

[Flash_G0D]

i heard off someone that link wasent going to be in this game is that ture?

[Relambrien]

www.smashbros.com/en_us/index.html

(Sweet, I remembered that URL off the top of my head!)

Go to Characters.

Also, anyone think we should get a link to the Dojo added to the first post so questions like these aren't asked all the time?

[Flash_G0D]

thanks relambrien for posting that link, now i know all the new people in that game

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by Squeek

This is totally untrue.

I put about as much time into Melee as any other guy. I was totally obsessed with the game. I probably put more time into Melee than all of my other Gamecube games combined. All 42 of them.

I don't play it as a fun party game. I play it just like you do; I compare my skill against others whenever possible. It just happens that my friends all hate Melee and I'm forced to play against bots, so all I really could do was play the campaigns on Very Hard with every character or play 3 vs 1 matches against level 9s or Cruel Melee. Before you jump down my throat and tell me that's not real skill, it is. If I can't play against other people, how else would you purport I test my skill at the game?

Can't you be good at a game without exploiting the engine? That's all I am asking. I never cheated (as I see it, cheating is anything against what the developers intend for gameplay) and I did just fine for myself.

You can only be good to a point. The thing with wave dashing is that it opens a lot more strategy and mind games that you cant do because you don't know how to do it or do it usefully.

[tsugomaru]

WAVEDASHING/GAME STYLE ARGUMENT BRAWL

Go

~Tsugomaru

[Squeek]

I'm not interested in that kind of an argument.

I just don't like it when people purposefully search for ways to exploit a game for the sake of trying to gain a competitive edge against others instead of actually playing a game and enjoying the overall experience of it.

I can see some people getting Brawl and never even touching the single-player campaign. That alone probably set the game back two or three months in development. Not playing it is like an insult to the developers who tried so hard to make an amazing story out of what is more or less just a fighting game.

Edit: Okay shut up about all that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzpmFLy3P-0

1:55-1:58. Trophy. Bottom right. Small blue character.

People are saying Geno, Piplup, Munchlax, Kamek, etc. Whoever it is, it's not a playable character as those trophies are results of beating the campaign.

[dauthik]

Originally Posted by Squeek

I'm not interested in that kind of an argument.

I just don't like it when people purposefully search for ways to exploit a game for the sake of trying to gain a competitive edge against others instead of actually playing a game and enjoying the overall experience of it.

I don't see why learning the glitch would affect your overall experience of it. It is not a glitch that has made any characters all-powerful (before they already were, anyway) and it adds new dimensions to the game. Cheating is like turning the entire map visible in Starcraft. It gives you a massive competitive edge that no one else can equal unless they cheat as well. This one just makes the game different. Back when I played Melee I could still beat people who used wavedashing without knowing how to do it myself.

[Gano]

How about it's annoying for players who want to play without having to deal with other players using dumb glitch things to their advantage.
ps whats wavedashing jk dont care

so how bout that vault, pretty neato~

[RoastedNoob]

Rofl, back to wavedashing argument, eh?

I still think it's stupid for people to dislike it without having ever tried it. -_-

[Telvanni_guard]

I wish I knew the specifics of wavedashing.


If wavedashing lets you do something that would otherwise be impossible to do in the game, then it is a glitch. And should never be used in competitive play.

I heard that Wavelanding is still in? What the hell is that?


Offhand, it's hard to get a good pause on the trophy... Personlly, it thought it looked like a Mudkip...