World of Warcraft

[Grandiagod]

I agree with that.

[ImEric12]

Yeah, but you're open to use all of those things as well. The game was designed to be added on to-- this is demonstrated by how horribly designed the default raid frames are. Blizzard has even stated this. So yes, all those addons make it easier, but you're on perfectly level ground and still haven't cleared bosses they have.

Anyway, Vezax definitely requires planning and thinking ahead.. you can't just get in and burn him down and blow all your mana right away. Saving caster dps for black puddles helps immensely, and planning saronite vapor use is also very helpful so you don't have wasted puddles. But still, it's CAKE after managing to keep everyone alive well into P4 of Mimiron.


Also, speaking of irritating wipes, I pugged naxx yesterday just for fun (got the 25 malygos key and barely missed the roll on Torch of Holy Fire aghhh) and our first KT attempt got him down, no joke, to 2400 health. =(

[Tokzic]

http://www.dauntlessones.com/index.php?topic=3691.0

Video of us downing XT-10 Hard.

Note the charts at the end.

I rock.

[Gano]

So my guilds on Mimi 25 now, had fun being phase 3 tank since we have no good locks, phase 4 is just a mess right now though.

Just yesterday half pugged a 25 Naxx and brought along one of the officers for my servers best raiding guild on Alliance, who was apparently watching me. After 4 wings down he offered me a spot in his guild asking if I was tired of topping meters every fight in my ****ty guild. So now I'm faced with a decision of going there where I'm less needed but will probably get geared out much quicker, or sticking with my current guild where I've worked my way to officer and have been progressing with for some 9 months. HMMMMM.

[devonin]

I never said you'd make a bad player good by giving them DBM.

And you don't think that a global announcement 10 seconds before every mechanic fires doesn't make it easier? A global announcement and automatic raid marking when players get targetting with mechanical effects? Convenient -and- easier. But again, the effects of DBM on the play weren't the focus of my point.

My point was the people who are arrogantly bragging all the time about their skill despite the fact that they use as many tools as they can to make things as easy and straightforward as possible, I find amusing. That's all.

[Tokzic]

Originally Posted by devonin

I never said you'd make a bad player good by giving them DBM.

And you don't think that a global announcement 10 seconds before every mechanic fires doesn't make it easier? A global announcement and automatic raid marking when players get targetting with mechanical effects? Convenient -and- easier. But again, the effects of DBM on the play weren't the focus of my point.

My point was the people who are arrogantly bragging all the time about their skill despite the fact that they use as many tools as they can to make things as easy and straightforward as possible, I find amusing. That's all.

I don't think it really removes any grandeur about doing something difficult when you use mods. It is the exact same game, it is the exact same achievement. No game mechanics are changed.

Do you find it amusing when people use flasks when they raid? I mean, it's making the fight easier. You can do it without them. Why not do it with the difficulty intended, right?

[tsugomaru]

I've been raiding without Deadly Boss Mods for the longest time. A month ago, I finally picked it up and it doesn't really help me much because I already pay attention to these things. I suppose the only thing DBM is good for are for people who don't know the fight. We were running with a guy who has never been to Naxx before, but he listened to what we told him, he paid attention to what was going around him, and he took note of the DBM warnings and he played as if he had been there many times before.

~Tsugomaru

[tsugomaru]

But to make sure I'm doing this right, using vent is cheating. People shouldn't feel proud that if they clear content while they use it. It makes communication with raid members way too easy.

~Tsugomaru

[Grandiagod]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

We were running with a guy who has never been to Naxx before, but he listened to what we told him, he paid attention to what was going around him, and he took note of the DBM warnings and he played as if he had been there many times before.

~Tsugomaru

If he was a healer that is very very easy. I've ran into 25 ulduar with no idea how to do any fight. Simply follow around other healers and watch for anything that looks dangerous.

[tsugomaru]

He was a mage. I'm talking about things like Thad, Four Horseman, and Gluth (he kited too). It may not seem like an impressive feat for you, but I've seen dps who have run Naxx so many times, but can't do any of this correctly.

~Tsugomaru

[Kagome]

bigwigs > DBM

[Relambrien]

I find that I get the most use out of DBM not from its ability to tell me when something happens, but when it is -going- to happen. As long as I know a fight, it isn't difficult to get by without DBM most of the time. For instance, the 25-man Emalon I did this week, I didn't even notice DBM wasn't telling me when Overcharged was happening until halfway through the fight.

Rather, I find that DBM adds a level of "comfort." Using the previous example, I could still handle finding and dispatching the overcharged add without difficulty. However, there was a level of anxiety whenever I saw the message, simply because I didn't expect it to happen at that time. With DBM, I can always keep tabs on the boss's timings, so that nothing comes as a surprise. That extra amount of knowledge doesn't really help performance so much as it helps comfort, which is something I've noticed with virtually every fight.

As for other addons, I find it difficult that anyone could raid with the default Blizzard threat monitor. Especially on a fight like Patchwerk, where the tanks need to be in specific positions on the threat list. Granted I can imagine how this would be done if there was no outside threat monitor (namely, figure out which tank has the best threat generation, then give all of the tanks a really really long time to build threat), but it's woefully inefficient.

All other addons I could realistically do without in a raid, but my performance would suffer noticeably. Having to click on buttons instead of press them (since I regularly use more than the default action bar in combat), being unable to accurately track cooldowns, having to manually check for various procs, etc. It's -doable-, but there would be a significant amount lost in the process.

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

For instance, the 25-man Emalon I did this week, I didn't even notice DBM wasn't telling me when Overcharged was happening until halfway through the fight.

The latest release of DBM broke the support for Emalon.

That fight doesn't really matter though, since Emalon's been nerfed to hell.

DBM still doesn't work properly on Kologarn either, but we've one-shotted him every week regardless.

It's not a tool we rely on, it's a helpful reminder of things to come.

In other news: I'm 100% done with Naxx. Got the hit ring from Naxx10 the other day and got the KT ring tonight. Finally done.

[devonin]

ITT Grandi trolls me but then understands my point and agrees
ITT Everyone else trolls me.

[tsugomaru]

I don't doubt that we all get what you're trying to say. We're just poking at you for fun.

~Tsugomaru

[Squeek]

I didn't have DBM until several weeks into raiding.

Some people are good naturally. Some people need a little help.

Personally, I don't use DBM for my own survival--I announce things on Vent. DBM knows when cooldowns on enemy skills are up and so I know when to call them out on Vent.

[Necamus]

The only addon I use while tanking is Omen.. everyone thinks I'm dumb for not using DBM, but I seem to do just fine without it.

[tsugomaru]

I guess the counters are useful. They let me prepare for things to come, but the game usually gives ample warning already.

~Tsugomaru

[devonin]

And a lot of the scary fight mechanics that require quick reactions don't ever target the main tank anyway.

[tsugomaru]

FUUUUUUUUSION...

~Tsugomaru