TWG CXXXI - Game of Champions

[Vendetta21]

Originally Posted by Charu

And repeat why I want to lynch Tokzic? Repeat why I have suspicions with Plop? And just now repeat why fiction is a good one as well?

You don't need me to make a 10 page essay explaining why, I already stated. Sorry if it doesn't quench your TWG thirst.

to some extent there is your history of psoting and to another extent there is the current focus of the thread, pretending that everoyone who views the thread is going to do their due dilligence in the next hour and a half is naive

press your lynch over and over and over, i don't remember it and i'm drunk and i'm floating a lot fo stuff. yopu want to win? WIN!

[Tokzic]

hello twg thread, barely conscious tokzic here responsibly reporting in for eod shenanigans

*yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn*

[Charu]

Originally Posted by Vendetta21

press your lynch over and over and over

Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic Tokzic

[Vendetta21]

Originally Posted by MrPopadopalis25

Okay V, here's some questions:

Why didn't you admit that you were planning on moving your vote to dap instead of leaving it on james like you implied you planned on doing all along in your early defense against me? Instead of admitting that "yes plop, you were right, I was planning on going back to dap" you made it seem like james was your final pick...isn't that disingenuous?

this is a stupid question in my opinion. i left it on james because i failed to wake up in time for phase end. i feel like i would have voted james, but again i was also anticipating something along the lines of chinese fire drill had i participated because it's a good way to throw wolves through a loop. i overslept because i didn't set an alarm (because i assumed the pghase end was happening later in the afternoon because i failed to check what the specific time was)

Why did you give choof a strong town read for talking about seer hunt cover near the start of the game?

i gave choof a strong town read not because he talked about seer hunt cover, but because of the nature of his questions to me about seer cover and the way the dialogue progressed. i could not envision a headspace where a red choof was having a tit-for-tat with me at that phase of the game on that subject that went down so... purely i suppose. he didn't seem naive, but he did seem geniune in the priogression he had mentally about the topic of seer-cover.

Why did you relent on fiction d1 and say he's probably town?

have you ever caught fiction as a wolf? historically i never have. in fact i've lynched a town fiction numerous times. i always have to hold in the back of my mind that fiction doesn't care about decorum or about what people generally think. probing into fiction requires you to force him out of his longstanding habit of pathological lying into an area opf trust and intimacy where he is willing to reveal his true feelings.

Why did your read on me go from me being excessively neutral, then when I stopped being neutral to being "placating in nature" or "going with the flow"? You say I'm not stepping on any toes, but then accuse me of having tunnelvision on you (thus implying I'm stepping on your toes). And what about my scum reads over the course of the game on fiction, tokzic, manti, and choof? Did I not step on their toes too?

so most of those are synonyms to describe a quality that doesn't itself have words. in trhe game of Go (japense black and white M&Ms on a 19x19 grid) there is two types of moves, called sente and gote. the first means forcing a response, the second means being forced to respond. while it isn't prefectly analogous, there is some truth to the fact that you have never done any sente mopves to anyone. you have never forced people to respond to you, you have never commanded your presence, you have never been had enough conviction in your reads to interrogate people over therm. at lot of the times with villagers this si fine, except for when they hold onto readsn throughout the game.

If you think that I'm scum, and your current intent is to lynch fiction, then that implies you think we're partners. Do you see any evidence of this in our interactions?

i'm actually still njot to a p[lace where i'm trying to draw lines of partnership. james may is pretty null in terms of partnership so i will be able to draw those sorts of correlations upon another red flip.; but right now, i'm just looking for the numero uno wolfiest target and not trying to voercomplicate my thinking because that level of complication is so cognitively dmenaing that it's utterly detrimental towards coming to any fleeting sense of clarity

[Vendetta21]

feel like i would have voted dbp*

[Charu]

So I just went and did a vote count thing. (You're welcome

Charu - sunfan
Tokzic -> sunfan
Tokzic -> Charu
Tokzic -> sunfan
Charu -> Tokzic
FoJaR -> fiction
Tokzic -> fiction
Vendetta -> fiction
Tokzic -> Charu
sunfan -> j-rodd

Not Voted:
fiction
popadop

---

fiction - XX
Charu X
Tokzic - X
j-rodd - X

[Charu]

I feel like I missed something here, hmm...

[Tokzic]

Originally Posted by FoJaR

i'm voting for fiction today. i dont see that changing, and i'm definitely not going to be on again before noon tomorrow.

you're missing that

[Charu]

Originally Posted by Tokzic

you're missing that

No, I'm pretty sure I tallied that!

[Charu]

OH, that's why it felt off.

j-rodd also didn't vote.

[Charu]

Charu - sunfan
Tokzic -> sunfan
Tokzic -> Charu
Tokzic -> sunfan
Charu -> Tokzic
FoJaR -> fiction
Tokzic -> fiction
Vendetta -> fiction
Tokzic -> Charu
sunfan -> j-rodd

Not Voted:
fiction
popadop
j-rodd

---

fiction - XX
Charu X
Tokzic - X
j-rodd - X

[Tokzic]

that's still weird because xel's postcount said there were 4 votes on fiction and i'm the only one who switched off of him

[Charu]

I saw he counted 4 on fiction as well. I think Middie was wrong, lol.

I mean, you're more than welcome to triple check for me!

[Charu]

Unless I missed j-rodd voting, let me go back I guess.

[Charu]

Yeah, he didn't vote.

[FictionJunction]

My comments in red because I'm red

Originally Posted by Vendetta21

okay so

1. fiction opened with saying i'm red

yes.

2. then fiction talked about how he is a mastering of reading me and waxed poetically about the tricks to reading me, but didn't come up with anything specific about what reading me meant

I didn't draw conclusions because at the time - and even now - it's difficult to pinpoint what your position is. I think I kind of spoke to this a couple of posts ago when talking to sunfan. It's also difficult because the underlying reason why you choose to play the way you do isn't obvious now because it's been a while since we've both played. So - not knowing enough, I only commented hoping my insight would help others see your actions from another lens.


3. then i called him out for this and he committed to not making any reads on D1

Because they are largely pointless drivel.

4. after a brief argument he agreed to vote for who i said i would vote for, which was james may. he made a big thing about how the onus was on me to prove that i wasn't making a bad call.

The whole point of delegating my vote is neglecting responsibility for the kill and establishing a somewhat tangible relationship between the person who requested I vote for X and myself for others to take a look. This is what I call an anchor.

The onus is on all of us to make the 'right call' and not kill for the 'wrong reasons' even if those reason would viscerally satisfy you. The onus isn't on me to behave like you expect a green to behave. This is pretty much a staple of my TWG game regardless of role. I know this, you know this, they know this.

5. then he votes for manti immediately after saying this in a couple of posts where he agrees with jrodd about killing DBP (#345 and #346)

what's weird leading up to this is this big thing about voting for who i told him to vote for, but when it's on james may, a known wolf, he switches to manti before phase end

I didn't know James was a red but I don't blame you - this is probably what inspired this entire diatribe because it's the only tangible connection you can draw between me and a red.

6. then he goes on and opens up day 2 with this



after there were numerous posts stating manti was obviously town now, and when jrodd states that manti was town. when jrodd brings this up:



7. fiction defends his "not realizing manti was the seer"



there's a subtlety here in that he is defending the case of "before he died," but jrodd had opened the phase by voting for fiction and then stating a thing about trying to pretend that the wolves might think zenith peeked fiction wolf. to me this smacks of being acutely in tune with this accusation and trying to sideshift them or mitigate thoughts surrounding the issue after he opened with what looks like a manti-was-peeked distancing vote

ok this is too much even for me - this really hinges on whether or not you believe I noticed zenith softing as hard as he did.

if you're a wolf and you've successfully killed a zenith seer, you've done it because you noticed his hints at his peek before the night phase, so one potential way to act like you're not a part of the kill is to call his peek red. jrodd had brought up this concern and fiction ignored this and chose to respond to a different point on the issue.

I actually have to look at this more closely - not sure I remember this happening?

this looks like addressing the issue on a cursory glance, but it's a very subtle way to cherry-pick what is actually addressed.

8. then fiction "gives" his vote again after we argue once more

the most interesting part of this is that when he "gave" me his vote before on james may and made it "my responsibility" to not make a bad call, he spuriously changed it to manti before the phase ended while simultaneously agreeing with jrodd about DBP... but not voting DBP

I don't think I had yet made my 'ok I read the thread' post by then, feel free to confirm.

this looks incredibly like trying to keep your hands clean of the lynch, and if he had read zenith as seer with a manti blue, it also looks like trying to either out the seer or kill his peek on day 1 when he might be able to get away with it

so, then, what happens the second time he "gives" me his vote?

we kill a green, and he doesn't change who he is voting for. all in all that's pretty fucking curious to me. i've been trying to not let myself get overly influenced by the fact that fiction is tunneling me and also knowing that i've been completely wrong about him before, but when i re-read the thread i realized that his overall behavior is just too fucking wolfy. especially this bullshit about "proving it's not a bad call" over "proving it seems like a good call," which i ultimately decided is the sort of brain worm a wolf would say to make you question yourself.

I don't think I'm trying to make you question yourself as much as I am refusing to give you 'reads' that I don't think do anything. I'm also kinda benging your arm so you can tread between the irrational pursuit of killing me because a red inherently does X and the rational pursuit of killing me because I did something clever you uncovered.

Which you haven't.

fiction

I don't do this. I'm never doing this again. I did this because V requested it.

[Tokzic]

found it

pop's vote currently on fiction

[Charu]

Originally Posted by MrPopadopalis25

Charu, you missed my vote on fiction.

Ah, I see! Mystery solved!

[Charu]

Charu - sunfan
Tokzic -> sunfan
Tokzic -> Charu
Tokzic -> sunfan
Charu -> Tokzic
popadop -> fiction <----- I think it's right here, but he did vote so, lol
FoJaR -> fiction
Tokzic -> fiction
Vendetta -> fiction
Tokzic -> Charu
sunfan -> j-rodd

Not Voted:
fiction
j-rodd

---

fiction - XXX
Charu X
Tokzic - X
j-rodd - X[/quote]

[FictionJunction]

but for the sake of transparency and giving you the benefit of the doubt - the fact you requested I do this is the greenest thing you've done in the thread. Your calmer-than-usual demeanor is what strikes me as red and the thing that you're not very good at doing as a green.

Now that you know how to motivate a red or green read from me, feel free to be honest because I was honest with you