TWG CXXXI - Game of Champions

[Charu]

Originally Posted by Tokzic

you're missing that

No, I'm pretty sure I tallied that!

[Charu]

Also, if you guys are so concern with V/fiction here, why not just lynch both?

We have 2 miss-lynches we can use, so if you guys are certain there's a wolf there, then why not lynch both to get rid of a ???????????????????????????? mark?

I'm 50/50 on fiction to be honest, but god damn do I feel like Tokzic is the best choice still.

[Charu]

It's more or less because he was our confirmed town @Plop

[FoJaR]

following the reads of a confirmed town is only useful if they were well thought out, or if the player has a confirmed gut.

if you are going to look at his reads, you should probably look at everyone who is dead and town.

but again, that's only a good idea if there is actually something behind those reads.

[Tokzic]

~ READS LIST ~

(greenest top reddest bottom)

V - My top human read. Echoing almost every thought that I have about every game event so far. If V is red then I'm going to have trust issues for the rest of my life.

J-rodd - His level of activity worries me, and he made a LOT of posts about the James May wagon for an inactive, even after it had already not happened. But he responds to a lot of the V posts that resonate with me, and I'm seeing enough red in other people that I feel okay giving him a green lean for now.

Popadop - Most of my initial suspicion on Plop was gut-based. Rereading the thread in its entirety, my gut is a lot quieter, and I still think his reads are off but I have a bad habit of mistakening wrong play for red play and I think this might be the case here, especially since his reasoning on Choof started clicking with me. You asked me how my read has evolved on you and Fiction, Popadop? Well, I think you're human.

Fojar - Currently null for me because all he's done this game is tunnel on Fiction and give very general town advice. He also fleetingly says V and Plop are wolves with no real explanation. Tough call. If I'm wrong on Fiction, Fojar's probably it.

Fiction - He seems more hesitant than usual to make reads on people - he spent the entirety of D1 refusing to make any reads at all, and at one point he even announces that he won't start making reads until D3, but he has curiously got quieter. When he DOES make reads, they're red reads on people I think/know are green, like V and Manti. He fits nicely with my two-wolves-in-the-inactives theory. And there's just something about how focussed he is on telling town not to lynch him. Most of all though, there's just something in my gut telling me he's a wolf that I'm having a hard time putting into words. I don't know how to describe it - it's nuances of his demeanor combined with our long TWG history.

Charu (or maybe Sunfan??) - These two are together because the way YoshL ragequit the game makes me believe either three town or two wolves were not playing the game, otherwise modkills would have been an easy fix to make the game functional again. James flipped red, so I think it's two wolves. You guys can call this angle shooting all you like, but it's not like I can turn my brain off and unmake a connection I'm seeing plainly. There's not enough content out of the two to make a good call yet, but the fact that many of Choof's posts pre-ragequit are questionable and Charu immediately jumped into the game with an opportunistic stab at me held up by paper-thin reasoning makes me think that he's the likelier wolf of the pair. Still, I haven't seen enough out of Tsunfun to make a good call on this yet.

[Tokzic]

fiction until i get more syrup from the charu and sunfan trees

[Charu]

Originally Posted by Tokzic

fiction until i get more syrup from the charu and sunfan trees

I'll give you syrup if you catch my drift...

[Charu]

Okay, Mr. Tokzic, or Mr. Wolf.

I can kind of see the fur already. Might as well take off those clothes off so we can have a sexy party as we cut your throat for the town!

[Tokzic]

Originally Posted by Charu

Okay, Mr. Tokzic, or Mr. Wolf.

I can kind of see the fur already. Might as well take off those clothes off so we can have a sexy party as we cut your throat for the town!

hey charu if your flawed theory is that i'm bussing my partners how about we kill fiction instead??

wait is it because he's your partner and you'd rather kill the human first??

[Charu]

Wanna go for fiction then, buddy?

Does that mean you're partners with Plop?

Oh my!!! THE DECISIONS TO BE MADE the lustful scent of a wolf!

[Tokzic]

Pop, I'd like to know something: How are you reading Choof/Charu? You made some posts that in retrospect made sense about Choof but now you say you think the wolves are V/Fic/James.

[Tokzic]

no promises about not sleeping 2/3s of the next 24 hours but i'm going to set alarms so that i'm actually present for the last few hours of eod

[Vendetta21]

okay so

1. fiction opened with saying i'm red
2. then fiction talked about how he is a mastering of reading me and waxed poetically about the tricks to reading me, but didn't come up with anything specific about what reading me meant

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

blind, gonna help you a bit about V and me.

The trick to reading V is determining whether or not the way he is behaving allows him to answer questions like 'will behaving like X help me get away with Y more easily?' or 'will doing X allow me to catch wolves' or 'will these sorts of posts drive people mad and is that fun for me right now?'

I see no reason why V's game now couldn't be green but this becomes clearer as he stumbles - V doesn't fall on his face as a red as he does as a green because the private chat allows him to be methodical and micromanagy - not the sort of quality he'll willingly display in the thread unless he's making power moves of his own, not something he's doing right now but something he'll likely pursue later because no matter how many opportunities V might have to not do the things I say he'll do, he'll do them anyway because being right is important to him

3. then i called him out for this and he committed to not making any reads on D1
4. after a brief argument he agreed to vote for who i said i would vote for, which was james may. he made a big thing about how the onus was on me to prove that i wasn't making a bad call.
5. then he votes for manti immediately after saying this in a couple of posts where he agrees with jrodd about killing DBP (#345 and #346)

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

DBP is a good practical lynch because his death will reveal information about people who voted for him.

what's weird leading up to this is this big thing about voting for who i told him to vote for, but when it's on james may, a known wolf, he switches to manti before phase end

6. then he goes on and opens up day 2 with this

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

My gut still says manti, followed by V and perhaps jrodd. That's lumping too many -good players- together, though. Will have to reread Zenith's posts to see if there's anything I feel those players may have caught on too that others wouldn't have. Can't assume the seer dying was random unless it doesn't seem Zenith raised blue flags high enough to get killed.

after there were numerous posts stating manti was obviously town now, and when jrodd states that manti was town. when jrodd brings this up:

Originally Posted by j-rodd123

and speaking of that im wondering if these people reacting now like they just went and looked at zenith's posts are legit or not, because if you were following the thread i think it was pretty obvious he was the seer, looking at you tokzic and fiction

7. fiction defends his "not realizing manti was the seer"

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

and I think this is the first time anyone has said it was obvious Zenith was the seer - I think we all accepted that in retrospect but you're the first to say it was obvious before he died.

You're downplaying it.

there's a subtlety here in that he is defending the case of "before he died," but jrodd had opened the phase by voting for fiction and then stating a thing about trying to pretend that the wolves might think zenith peeked fiction wolf. to me this smacks of being acutely in tune with this accusation and trying to sideshift them or mitigate thoughts surrounding the issue after he opened with what looks like a manti-was-peeked distancing vote

if you're a wolf and you've successfully killed a zenith seer, you've done it because you noticed his hints at his peek before the night phase, so one potential way to act like you're not a part of the kill is to call his peek red. jrodd had brought up this concern and fiction ignored this and chose to respond to a different point on the issue.

this looks like addressing the issue on a cursory glance, but it's a very subtle way to cherry-pick what is actually addressed.

8. then fiction "gives" his vote again after we argue once more

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

ok I did promise you my vote so

blind

I am a man of my word

the most interesting part of this is that when he "gave" me his vote before on james may and made it "my responsibility" to not make a bad call, he spuriously changed it to manti before the phase ended while simultaneously agreeing with jrodd about DBP... but not voting DBP

this looks incredibly like trying to keep your hands clean of the lynch, and if he had read zenith as seer with a manti blue, it also looks like trying to either out the seer or kill his peek on day 1 when he might be able to get away with it

so, then, what happens the second time he "gives" me his vote?

we kill a green, and he doesn't change who he is voting for. all in all that's pretty fucking curious to me. i've been trying to not let myself get overly influenced by the fact that fiction is tunneling me and also knowing that i've been completely wrong about him before, but when i re-read the thread i realized that his overall behavior is just too fucking wolfy. especially this bullshit about "proving it's not a bad call" over "proving it seems like a good call," which i ultimately decided is the sort of brain worm a wolf would say to make you question yourself.

fiction

[FictionJunction]

Originally Posted by Vendetta21

words

fiction

look, I already told you I didn't notice it so maybe I'm not the twg player you all think I am.

Your insistence is crazy to me because the more I read jrodd red the more I read you green. And vice versa. Red V doesn't strike me as the person who would not back down when he knows he should back down - and you should've backed down a while ago because that tl;dr you wrote up there is so obnoxiously calculated it's contrived.

That ain't me - not today

[thesunfan]

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

look, I already told you I didn't notice it so maybe I'm not the twg player you all think I am.

What does this mean, exactly?

[FictionJunction]

Originally Posted by thesunfan

What does this mean, exactly?

I'm saying I'm bad at this game sunfan sorry to disappoint you

[FictionJunction]

My comments in red because I'm red

Originally Posted by Vendetta21

okay so

1. fiction opened with saying i'm red

yes.

2. then fiction talked about how he is a mastering of reading me and waxed poetically about the tricks to reading me, but didn't come up with anything specific about what reading me meant

I didn't draw conclusions because at the time - and even now - it's difficult to pinpoint what your position is. I think I kind of spoke to this a couple of posts ago when talking to sunfan. It's also difficult because the underlying reason why you choose to play the way you do isn't obvious now because it's been a while since we've both played. So - not knowing enough, I only commented hoping my insight would help others see your actions from another lens.


3. then i called him out for this and he committed to not making any reads on D1

Because they are largely pointless drivel.

4. after a brief argument he agreed to vote for who i said i would vote for, which was james may. he made a big thing about how the onus was on me to prove that i wasn't making a bad call.

The whole point of delegating my vote is neglecting responsibility for the kill and establishing a somewhat tangible relationship between the person who requested I vote for X and myself for others to take a look. This is what I call an anchor.

The onus is on all of us to make the 'right call' and not kill for the 'wrong reasons' even if those reason would viscerally satisfy you. The onus isn't on me to behave like you expect a green to behave. This is pretty much a staple of my TWG game regardless of role. I know this, you know this, they know this.

5. then he votes for manti immediately after saying this in a couple of posts where he agrees with jrodd about killing DBP (#345 and #346)

what's weird leading up to this is this big thing about voting for who i told him to vote for, but when it's on james may, a known wolf, he switches to manti before phase end

I didn't know James was a red but I don't blame you - this is probably what inspired this entire diatribe because it's the only tangible connection you can draw between me and a red.

6. then he goes on and opens up day 2 with this



after there were numerous posts stating manti was obviously town now, and when jrodd states that manti was town. when jrodd brings this up:



7. fiction defends his "not realizing manti was the seer"



there's a subtlety here in that he is defending the case of "before he died," but jrodd had opened the phase by voting for fiction and then stating a thing about trying to pretend that the wolves might think zenith peeked fiction wolf. to me this smacks of being acutely in tune with this accusation and trying to sideshift them or mitigate thoughts surrounding the issue after he opened with what looks like a manti-was-peeked distancing vote

ok this is too much even for me - this really hinges on whether or not you believe I noticed zenith softing as hard as he did.

if you're a wolf and you've successfully killed a zenith seer, you've done it because you noticed his hints at his peek before the night phase, so one potential way to act like you're not a part of the kill is to call his peek red. jrodd had brought up this concern and fiction ignored this and chose to respond to a different point on the issue.

I actually have to look at this more closely - not sure I remember this happening?

this looks like addressing the issue on a cursory glance, but it's a very subtle way to cherry-pick what is actually addressed.

8. then fiction "gives" his vote again after we argue once more

the most interesting part of this is that when he "gave" me his vote before on james may and made it "my responsibility" to not make a bad call, he spuriously changed it to manti before the phase ended while simultaneously agreeing with jrodd about DBP... but not voting DBP

I don't think I had yet made my 'ok I read the thread' post by then, feel free to confirm.

this looks incredibly like trying to keep your hands clean of the lynch, and if he had read zenith as seer with a manti blue, it also looks like trying to either out the seer or kill his peek on day 1 when he might be able to get away with it

so, then, what happens the second time he "gives" me his vote?

we kill a green, and he doesn't change who he is voting for. all in all that's pretty fucking curious to me. i've been trying to not let myself get overly influenced by the fact that fiction is tunneling me and also knowing that i've been completely wrong about him before, but when i re-read the thread i realized that his overall behavior is just too fucking wolfy. especially this bullshit about "proving it's not a bad call" over "proving it seems like a good call," which i ultimately decided is the sort of brain worm a wolf would say to make you question yourself.

I don't think I'm trying to make you question yourself as much as I am refusing to give you 'reads' that I don't think do anything. I'm also kinda benging your arm so you can tread between the irrational pursuit of killing me because a red inherently does X and the rational pursuit of killing me because I did something clever you uncovered.

Which you haven't.

fiction

I don't do this. I'm never doing this again. I did this because V requested it.

[XelNya]

Current vote count:

Fiction: 4
jrod: 1
tokzic: 1

Also, the end of the day post might be posted late. I'm being forced to report for jury shit today. Which fuckin' blows I tell you.

In the event it is posted late, votes past 5:20 PM server will not count. And I'd prefer it if you guys wouldn't talk at all during the down time should it happen.

Thanks, and sorry, really. I'm gonna try my best to see it done on time though. I will have my laptop with me, so we'll see.

[FictionJunction]

gl guys

[FictionJunction]

hey fiction why did you let us kill you it's your fault you got lynched because you made us think you're red thanks for wasting our time ugh