Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

[rushyrulz]

I read the whole thread before I posted. I just didn't find it necessary to say:

Originally Posted by Minati

Your parents "left you the fuck alone" and so you ended up playing Stepmania for all these years when you could've done something else like learning a sport or learning an instrument. Congratulations.

and:

Originally Posted by Minati

Especially not when you're off in the corner playing Stepmania (not saying you play it 24/7, but just stating some of your interests over other things, such as family matters, schoolwork, etcetera).

without it being a 'personal attack'. It is a personal attack, you're blaming Dossar's alleged lack of discipline on his skill in a game on the internet. A person's skill in a game doesn't say anything about how they were raised, so I don't see why it's necessary to bring it up twice.

In fact, there are a few asians with 'Chinese mothers' who are quite good at this game as well as excelling in their math and music. The difference between Dossar and them is that Dossar doesn't have a parent forcing him to do anything.

So since both sides are represented, it's probably safe to say that skill in Stepmania has absolutely nothing to do with this topic and it can only be taken as a personal attack, even if you didn't think it was.

Like I previously stated, I don't support the chinese mother parenting style nor the "leave them the fuck alone" parenting style, but something in between is perfect.

[spartanumaw]

Originally Posted by sakura080789

I really don't think that is a good way of parenting. Think about it your children hate you thats not how a parent is suppose to treat there child. Give them love and attention and allow them to be whatever they want to be.

I'm not choosing one side or the other(my parents found that balance inbetween..white dad, chinese mom) but this idea is what led america to be (in my opinion) obese, intellectually inferior, and all around less successful.

[Minati]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

I read the whole thread before I posted. I just didn't find it necessary to say:



and:



without it being a 'personal attack'. It is a personal attack, you're blaming Dossar's alleged lack of discipline on his skill in a game on the internet. A person's skill in a game doesn't say anything about how they were raised, so I don't see why it's necessary to bring it up twice.

In fact, there are a few asians with 'Chinese mothers' who are quite good at this game as well as excelling in their math and music. The difference between Dossar and them is that Dossar doesn't have a parent forcing him to do anything.

So since both sides are represented, it's probably safe to say that skill in Stepmania has absolutely nothing to do with this topic and it can only be taken as a personal attack, even if you didn't think it was.

Like I previously stated, I don't support the chinese mother parenting style nor the "leave them the fuck alone" parenting style, but something in between is perfect.

Actually, it's not a "personal attack", but rather an attack on the entirety of this community in general.. You'll find that people who excel in such things mentioned by Amy Chua (ex. violin, piano, academics) will most likely NEVER spend time on such trivial things such as Stepmania, FFR, or video games in general. Of course, "video games" could be replaced with getting wasted on a Tuesday afternoon, ignoring schoolwork, and much more.

What I was saying is, had DossarLX ODI's parents (or mine) brought him up in a strict manner instead of the "leave him the fuck alone" beginning from his younger years, he probably would have never began Stepmania, and would probably be a 4.0 future valedictorian student with interests in swimming, the french horn, or whatever.

All of which are infinitely more useful than knowing how to smash arrow keys. That I regret myself - spending time on Stepmania. I mean, look at yourself. 25 billion points, 4800 posts. You could've spent that time smashing all those arrows, lurking the forums, typing up lengthy responses such as these - on something else. Something... more meaningful, more useful, and more respectable.

That is what the Asian parent tries to enforce. Doing something worthwhile your time. They try to teach theirs kids what's worth their time from the start. Taking part in a school play when you're not planning on doing theatrics in college is not worth [their] time. Doing sleepovers and playing doll wasn't worth Amy Chua's time.

Sure, it may differ for everyone, but I'm sure that we'll all regret spending so much time on FFR and Stepmania at some point in our lives. Because.. you should all ask yourself this question. Will you be playing FFR in 15 years? Or will you still know how to play that violin in 15 years? Will you swim and play tennis in 15 years? Of course.

But will you still be out partying with people in their 20s in 15 years? Will you be gossiping with your friends about who broke up with who and who started going out with who in say.. 10 years?

Or will you be regretting those few years you spent so carelessly, thinking of all the things that you could have done and could have learned?

By that time however, there will be nobody to blame but yourself. Not even your parents.

[ddrxero64]

Oh, I am so going to tear this thread apart.

I took the time to read every post here, especially the ones that mattered. So don't pull of one of those "You obviously didn't read the previous pages" comments with me.

To start off, the article itself has way too many weak arguments that aren't backed up in order to be taken seriously. She says she bases her argument on her parenting and the result of it. She claims to have friends that have benefited from the same style of parenting, and she knows people who have suffered from a "Western Style" of parenting. Yet she never provides evidence or proof of either of these, and we're stuck with one story a girl who played one piano song, which even wasn't confirmed as well. But let's just take her word for it. Take this excerpt for example:

Originally Posted by Amy Chua

I told her to stop being lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic.

Jed took me aside. He told me to stop insulting Lulu—which I wasn't even doing...

She says she never insulted Lulu, which is obviously apparent in the sentence before. For you people who really want to get nitty gritty, here are 6 examples of the definition of insult.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/insult
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insult
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insult
http://www.yourdictionary.com/insult
http://www.brainyquote.com/words/in/insult179381.html
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Insult

Last time I checked, lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic were all examples of demeaning words. If you don't believe me, feel free to search up a definition of a credible source and prove me wrong. She does in fact insult Lulu, yet denies it in her proof. This definitely decreases the reliability of this article as fact, and creates a lot of bias.

Her philosophy is also based on one factor, which is the parenting style of course. She doesn't take into mind the educational system that she places her daughters in. They could be prestigious private schools that teach children with highly qualified teachers. She never said she home schooled, but it's implied she didn't when says she never let her daughter go to a school play.
She never references the fact that the chinese educational laws and system is very highly rated, and instead takes all credit for her child's success, as if she taught everything herself. She says chinese mothers never worry about their children's self esteem. Yet in places like Japan where parenting may be similar there is a high suicide rate that is directly caused by the difficulty of Japanese education. I can put my money on the idea that it's not the education system killing children, but on the parenting from the strict mothers and fathers. Also if you want to challenge me on that suicide death rate, then you better have some proof. It isn't really my job to have to back up every little thing I say. If I have to I will, but don't challenge me with words and no proof, it's just plain unprofessional.

DossarLX ODI - I don't completely agree with your theory, but for a child to self motivate themselves is completely possible. They can also be motivated through the support of friends and teachers as well, so it's not entirely impossible for a child to have no kind of parenting and still grow up to be talented, though I may not agree that it exactly fits your situation.

Minati -Ignorance is bliss isn't it? You may as well be Amy Chua herself, creating arguments with holes, contradictions and weak.

Originally Posted by Minati

Excellent parenting. Although, Amy Chua is a bit on the extreme side. After all, she did attend Yale Law School - can't expect any less from such a hard working parent.

Work hard now - play later.

Most of you would be better off had your parents raised you in a more strict manner, such as this woman.

Although, she does take two EXTREMES and puts them in an almost satirical way.. she has a valid point. Westerners are more prone to parenting with "love" and "care", but really it's just an excuse. The more parents try to keep you happy from the start, the more parents try to make you feel loved, the less you'll start working or studying on your own. Unless children have that external force (motivation, punishments, prizes), they will NEVER do things on their own, simply because they have no reason to.

Giving children a reason to hone a skill whether it be musical instruments or academics or sports will be beneficial to not only the child later on, but to the parents as well.

Think about it. Children and teenagers may get their 5-10 years of relaxation and fun, but once they're thrown out into the real world - how will they cope? With the 5-10 years spent not studying hard, not honing some sort of skill, not doing anything really, other people who were motivated since their childhood will have already learned how to play the guitar, piano and will also have gotten ahead of you in terms of academics.

So while you work at a low income retail store (a rather hurtful stereotype, but true for the most part regardless), the people who were raised by strict parents (maybe not as strict as Amy Chua, but still strict in terms of Westerns) will have attended a more prestigious college and will have a more prestigious job.

White collar, blue collar.

The difference exists for a reason - parenting.

PS) Read about this a few days ago.. my friend showed it to me. I have to say - I was quite pleased with this article. Maybe it's because I was raised by someone like Amy Chua.

PSS) Most replies in this agreeing with the article will probably be made by Asians and non-Westerners while most replies disagreeing with the article will consist of (surprise!) Westerners. It's because we were raised in such different environments - I guess the "model minority" stereotype is confirmed with this rather unorthodox yet valid article.

Let us analyze this post. First thing is that Yale Law School doesn't certify you as a good and hard working parent, it gives you a degree in Law. You mention that children will NEVER (hasn't been proven) do things on their own without motvation and prizes. Love and providing your child with happiness via material objects and moral support are forms of motivation. Prizes don't always have to be physical things you can touch, so it could be the opportunity to play an instrument of choice. Anything can be a prize really, as long as the child is willing to work for it. As for the children excelling at a guitar, piano, and academics, those are not the only qualities to succeed in life. There are rappers who have none of those qualities, and yet they're out living their dream. By the way, stereotypes aren't true, or they wouldn't be called stereotypes, they would be called a fact. So you might want to fix that retail store comment. Also, a prestigious college has little to do with your job, because your job doesn't like at how you were taught, but how you apply it. Also, good job guessing who will agree with and who won't based on region. It's not racist at all.

Next quote:

Originally Posted by Minati

Your parents "left you the fuck alone" and so you ended up playing Stepmania for all these years when you could've done something else like learning a sport or learning an instrument. Congratulations. Your parents "left you the fuck alone" and that's why you use George Carlin (who is an excellent comedian, I'll agree with that), and this.. "snipeme.com" as some sort of reliable source for supporting the fact that parents should leave their kids "the fuck alone."

Sorry to say, but leaving kids "the fuck alone" has never been a good parenting choice, if not the worst. That has been tested by time and time again.

So tell me, learning a sport or playing an instrument would have furthered his opportunities in the future huh? The sports industry is very risky, and so is the music industry. You are almost never guaranteed a stable job with a steady pay in either field, so that was horrible choices instead of stepmania. You're sarcasm doesn't effectively improve your argument at all either. Especially since you have no references or sources to support any of your statements, but you are quick to judge Dossar LX ODI's reference. And as for the last sentence, please provide a link where it has been tested by time and time again. I couldn't find it.

Next Quote:

Originally Posted by Minati

All in all, pushy parents create prodigies and the 4.0 students that most of us have envied at one point in our lives. We even wish we had their grades, their skills, and that's where the difference comes in. The parents.

There have been prodigies by parents who aren't pushy as well, and you failed to mention that. Also, you need to speak for yourself when you say people have envied 4.0 averages. The valedictorian at my school was definitely a 4.0 if not higher chinese student, but the depressed look on his face is something I felt sorry for, not envied. It seems that most of these words are coming from personal experience, not from people who have told you this.

Next Quote:

Originally Posted by Minati

Actually, it's not a "personal attack", but rather an attack on the entirety of this community in general.. You'll find that people who excel in such things mentioned by Amy Chua (ex. violin, piano, academics) will most likely NEVER spend time on such trivial things such as Stepmania, FFR, or video games in general. Of course, "video games" could be replaced with getting wasted on a Tuesday afternoon, ignoring schoolwork, and much more.

What I was saying is, had DossarLX ODI's parents (or mine) brought him up in a strict manner instead of the "leave him the fuck alone" beginning from his younger years, he probably would have never began Stepmania, and would probably be a 4.0 future valedictorian student with interests in swimming, the french horn, or whatever.

All of which are infinitely more useful than knowing how to smash arrow keys. That I regret myself - spending time on Stepmania. I mean, look at yourself. 25 billion points, 4800 posts. You could've spent that time smashing all those arrows, lurking the forums, typing up lengthy responses such as these - on something else. Something... more meaningful, more useful, and more respectable.

That is what the Asian parent tries to enforce. Doing something worthwhile your time. They try to teach theirs kids what's worth their time from the start. Taking part in a school play when you're not planning on doing theatrics in college is not worth [their] time. Doing sleepovers and playing doll wasn't worth Amy Chua's time.

Sure, it may differ for everyone, but I'm sure that we'll all regret spending so much time on FFR and Stepmania at some point in our lives. Because.. you should all ask yourself this question. Will you be playing FFR in 15 years? Or will you still know how to play that violin in 15 years? Will you swim and play tennis in 15 years? Of course.

But will you still be out partying with people in their 20s in 15 years? Will you be gossiping with your friends about who broke up with who and who started going out with who in say.. 10 years?

Or will you be regretting those few years you spent so carelessly, thinking of all the things that you could have done and could have learned?

By that time however, there will be nobody to blame but yourself. Not even your parents.

I love this quote the most, with such a big contradiction to start. So if DossarLX ODI was raised by strict parents, even yours, he would have never even began stepmania. Then what are you doing here? You try to argue that you regret playing stepmania. But you're still here. My favorite quote was when you told him he could be doing something more productive than typing "lengthy responses like these." Yet you typed it. According to your logic, you're parents weren't strict with you at all, lacking techniques such as teaching you respect, how to use your time wisely, and most importantly, the definition of hypocrisy. I love the self implying questions you ask yourself as well. Will I play FFR in 15 years? Probably not. Will I love to remember the good times I had? Definitely. Will I know how to play violin in 15 years if I know now? Of course. Will it be useful in my career? Most likely not. Will I be playing tennis and swimming in 15 years? Sure. For recreational and healthy purposes, not for academic success. Will I still be partying with people in their 20s in 15 years? No, because they'll be in their 30s. Will I be gossiping with my friends about break ups and relationships in 10 years? No, I will have my own to maintain. Will I regret the things I could have learned and done when I'm older? Only if they were things I dreamed of doing. Try sky diving when you're 60. It may not be as easy as when you're 20. Learning a useless violin at 60 years old may be more possible.

Next Quote:

Originally Posted by Minati

You see, the "yelling at your children" part wouldn't have happened had they raised you in a more strict manner beginning from your kindergarten years.

They're not "leaving you alone" - they just don't really care anymore because it's hopeless now. Especially not when you're off in the corner playing Stepmania (not saying you play it 24/7, but just stating some of your interests over other things, such as family matters, schoolwork, etcetera).

I say this because I (think) I saw you post a thread when I didn't have an account about your schoolwork ethics and how you had no motivation.. or something along those lines. Assuming what I think is true, then maybe your parents do have a legitimate reason to yell at you, and maybe you don't have a legitimate reason to be ignoring them.

It's not they who cut off close ties with you - it is you, the child. A parent would not do so, especially not if they're still sending you to school and "leaving you the fuck alone". Cutting off ties means divorces, non parental guardians, and much more. So I just think your parents gave up on you.

That's my speculation, take my opinions with a grain of salt - they are not personal attacks but rather observations that I've made in my few days here on the forums.

You're saying DossarLX ODI's parents don't care about him, yet you infer this from text written by him. Try meeting his parents before you judge them through someone else's eyes. You are assuming which is correct, you are able to admit that. Just to let you know, assuming how things are won't get you far in life. Also, westerners are forced to send their children to school. It is national law. So don't assume that a parent sending their children to school is voluntary and means they care. You're observations are very primitive, and include assumptions, incorrect facts, and irrelevant sources.

Next Quote:

Originally Posted by Minati

I'm not attacking DossarLX ODI - I was just saying why he shouldn't advocate the "leave the kids the fuck alone" style of parenting. If you read the previous pages, you would know. I've read a few of his threads and nowhere in my response did I say he fails his classes, gets bad grades, or being shut out from the world. Maybe being "left the fuck alone" worked for him, but it sure does not work the other 99.9% of teenagers who end up being worse off than they could have been.

Please, entertain me with one statistic from a credible source that claims 99.9% of teenagers are worse off having their parents leaving them alone.

All in all Minati, it isn't worth defending such a poorly written argument in the first place. Backing up your arguments with factual information and low biased statistics are most effective when trying to argue though. Feel free to argue with this post, just try to back it up so you don't look like a hypocrite who didn't read my post. Since you are used to providing assumptions that are irrelevant as well, feel free to attack me rather than my argument. It will very mature.

-ddrXero64

[Reach]

You'll find that people who excel in such things mentioned by Amy Chua (ex. violin, piano, academics) will most likely NEVER spend time on such trivial things such as Stepmania, FFR, or video games in general.

For the record, while this is true in some cases, I have friends that are incredibly astute at music and academia and still find time for leisure activities. I too have played the piano for years now, have performed in concerts and play at a level sufficient to pass teaching exams. I also graduated university with a BS.c with a GPA equivalent to summa cum laude in the USA. I also play a plethora of video games and played stepmania for years.


Now, the point of that wasn't to gasconade, but to point out the fact that people can perform well in standard measures of achievement without going through slave labor as a child.


It's not as if this topic hasn't been studied in the past. It is well known that strong parenting will increase the achievement of a child.

With that said, what is the ultimate outcome of children that are pushed to the extreme? When we look at the data in psychology from super high achievers to child prodigies, several things stand out. Many of these children burn out when they reach college; they become tired and frustrated and daunted by the fact that their torture still isn't over, and many of them fail to achieve anything near what they achieved as a child in what could be considered the major turning point in their life. They simply lack the independent drive necessary to make it through these tumultuous times.

Essentially, often times this style of parenting backfires. Pushing a child too hard can break a child down. These children are incredibly prone to depression and failure later in life.


This type of parenting style can also stymie creativity. There are benefits to leisure time. When kept in check, play time can foster intellectual growth through exploring curiosity and building a sense of self.


A superior parenting style is one that is both tough but nurturing as well. I think that pushing your children is good for them, but on the same point, you can only push so hard. You should always allow your children time for themselves, because this allows them to understand their own desires and passions.

If someone is passionate about something and has a burning desire to do something, suddenly you don't need to push them anymore. Suddenly, they're perfectly capable of doing everything and more independently.

If you look at prodigies that didn't burn out as adults, the ones that go on to achieve great things with their lives, they are the ones with the burning desire. They're the ones stringing the parents along, not the other way around. If someone is going to grow to be all that they can be, they need to find this drive within themselves. Simply pushing someone along as hard as you can is never going to force this into them; they have to find it.


Asians in North America have been highly successful, nobody is denying that. I think this result is convoluted though; it's not strictly because of parenting. There's a sort of immigrant effect where the people that leave a country for another tend to be above average intelligence, meaning their progeny will be above average as well. As such, the sample is a bit biased, and we're talking about training children that are already quite intelligent, so of course they're going to do well.


It's another thing to take a child of mediocre or less than average ability and expect them to do great things through parenting alone. It will never happen. Ne Plus Ultra only ever happens in combination of an exceptional person and an exceptional parent, never one or the other.

[Minati]

Dear ddrxero64,

It is very entertaining to see you make an attempt at "tearing this thread apart", but in reality, all you've done is just pore over my posts and you have contributed absolutely nothing to the "critical thinking" section of this forum.

As a matter of fact, it just seems like you're riding DossarLX ODI's dick for all he's worth, and that's totally fine by me.

After all, you do seem like a stuck up teenager who thinks his shit smells sweeter than most. But that's fine by me, since I know you don't pursue law like I do, and you've probably never taken part in a serious debate either.

Let's take a look at this..

"There are rappers who have none of those qualities, and yet they're out living their dream. By the way, stereotypes aren't true, or they wouldn't be called stereotypes, they would be called a fact."

Just this part of your post alone indicates that you have a flawed way of thinking. Stereotypes as a matter of fact came about because they are true for the most part. For example, do Asians tend to have smaller and slitty eyes? Yes, because that is indeed true for the most part. Do white people tend to be the "disgusting pigs" as the extremist Chinese describe Westerners to be? Not really, but America definitely courts some of the most obese people in the world. Do chinese people tend to be the "model minority" in America? For the most part, yes - that is why people like Amy Chua exist today.

Also, your example of a rapper living out their dreams... is just pathetic. These jobs you speak of (rappers, celebrities, etc) are jobs that are not applicable to everyone and thus because the Chinese mothers realize that the average son and daughter has a very slim to zero chance of holding an occupation of the sort, they push their children towards more stable jobs and professions, such as the stereotypical doctor or the lawyer.

And let's look at this:

"Please, entertain me with one statistic from a credible source that claims 99.9% of teenagers are worse off having their parents leaving them alone."

I would love to see how you deal with people. When I mention "99.9% of teenagers", do you take that as a literal statistic? Or are you so mentally retarded that you don't get why the number "99.9" was used in that sentence? It's called exaggeration - it's used to make a point. I don't know about you, but a lot of the people I know sure can't come up with exact statistics without in-depth research - we're not robots and supercomputers. And the fact that you take my words so literally makes you seem like a rather shallow person who has no real content to back shit up. Your style of analytics and "debating" if one called "bullshit." There maybe a point here and there, but in between, there is a whole lot of bull. If you can't come up with legitimate reasons that can prove teenagers are better off without their parents guiding them and telling them what to do, be my guest! I'm sure you can argue against the entire world on that. So good luck!

You sir, seem like a 17 year old teenager who has big dreams and big aspirations, but really - your shit doesn't smell sweeter than most of us here. Remember that, or else you'll get bitten in the ass big time later on.

[Reincarnate]

Just because something is offensive doesn't make it untrue. It really bothers me when people say "But this isn't true for EVERYONE etc" before rattling off some random anecdote that shows a contrary-to-average case -- no shit. When a generalization is made, it's usually helpful to speak in terms of average and deviation. That is to say, maybe group A has a lower average of metric X than group B does, but perhaps with a much greater variance.

[Minati]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Just because something is offensive doesn't make it untrue. It really bothers me when people say "But this isn't true for EVERYONE etc" before rattling off some random anecdote that shows a contrary-to-average case -- no shit. When a generalization is made, it's usually helpful to speak in terms of average and deviation. That is to say, maybe group A has a lower average of metric X than group B does, but perhaps with a much greater variance.

Precisely... stereotypes do exist for a reason. They don't apply to everyone and they aren't very pleasant most of the time either.. but they do exist for a reason.

[justaguy]

Originally Posted by dag12

Here's an interesting article that I thought I'd like to share, from the Wall Street Journal

Why Chinese Mothers are Superior
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...528698754.html

What do you all think?
Is this a good way of parenting?
What are your own personal experiences with your parents?
I think I might contribute my own little anecdotes later, since I'm Asian (though Japanese, not Chinese), but I want to see what people have to say about this.

also quoting what rubix said to save myself the trouble of conveying my own sentiments

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

I have a really hard time believing that this article is serious. It appears to be an obvious sort of generalized concept blown up into an extreme variant in order to generate controversy and buzz. Then again, maybe it's not -- the fact that she's an Asian professor at Yale married to a Jewish white professor at Harvard gives enough credence to high-percentile confirmation bias such that these extreme views feel almost like necessary conditions within her socioeconomic echelons.

[dag12]

With regards to the article, I think it's a big publicity stunt to garner interest about her new book from which this article was taken.
I would imagine that someone as well-educated as a Yale professor would have a more nuanced and balanced opinion, so the inflammatory article (so extreme it almost reads like a satire) is a clever way to enrage people to buy her book, haha.

[ddrxero64]

Thanks for the letter Minati.

First, just let me say I've never talked to DossarLX, but I have heard of him. The fact that he doesn't use generalizations to make something seem 100% true is enough for me to agree with him for the most part. You, on the other hand, are still defending an article which still has no effective argument, and is based merely on a story here and there.

Law isn't a pursuit of mine, though business is. I am a student in college, and I do study business tactics and also try to get a little psychology done to learn how people like you try to argue, and why they say things to convey certain ideas that aren't remotely true.

Your comment on stereotypes is almost decent, except for the fact that none of the stereotypes you mentioned are even discussed nowadays. Asians having slitty eyes is a factual characteristic of the race, unless of course they are a mixed race, in which case it is questionable. And the white people who are pigs is a new stereotype that I've never heard of, probably made by you in a careless attempt to prove your point. As a matter of fact, white people and America are not the same term, so look that over. There are plenty of countries in Europe that are full of white people.

While I do admit a rapper was a poor example, I still have yet to hear an explanation on how playing classical instruments and avoiding an extracurricular activity will raise the chances of becoming a stereotypical doctor or lawyer.

Also, the 99.9% comment I made was sarcastic. Your defense on your sarcasm only led to your inability to see mine. It's obvious that no such statistic exists, and I only pointed out the flaw in your argument. Using words like "entertain" is a hint enough that I didn't take it seriously. You claim you were being sarcastic, and I could see that, but for you to miss my sarcasm (which was a bit more obvious) is very ironic.

If you wish to see how I deal with people, than ask the people who talk to me. You'll most likely get a mixed reaction, but I can guess which responses you'll get the most. Of course, if you decide to do this, try to lessen the bias you are used to, such as appealing to the bigger crowd, only asking people you prefer to talk to, etc.

I do have big aspirations and big dreams, though I'm a bit passed those teenage years. At least you are able to see that. Your choice of debate isn't one to be used by a lawyer though, and I can't imagine a respected lawyer using your style of argument in a court room. You might want to work on that if you want to succeed in the field of law.

Last time I checked, my shit smells horrible. Nice try at some sort of comeback though, it was very original.

[Reincarnate]

If you aren't using generalizations, you aren't really saying anything useful.

Generalizations are useful if you want to identify areas to actually SOLVE and DISCUSS problems. Otherwise you're just sweeping blatant truths under the rug and hoping they manage themselves.

I am too lazy to get into the retarded argument you two are having, but I will interject that plenty of people try to get their kids involved in things like music and sports and other extracurricular activities because it teaches discipline, hard work, talent, and mental acuity. That sort of mindset ultimately spills over into almost every other facet of life.

[ddrxero64]

I can see where this debate will end up. So I will stop now.

Say what you want, I guess I will finish replying. Too much hypocrisy and contradiction for me to even bother arguing. In the end, none of this will have affected my life or anyone's life here in my opinion (at least I hope so), so I don't really take much of it to heart. Thanks for the legitimate debate though, I did get to hone my skills in effective argument.

[HoneyMelonCalibrator]

Originally Posted by dag12

With regards to the article, I think it's a big publicity stunt to garner interest about her new book from which this article was taken.
I would imagine that someone as well-educated as a Yale professor would have a more nuanced and balanced opinion, so the inflammatory article (so extreme it almost reads like a satire) is a clever way to enrage people to buy her book, haha.

Yeah, I saw this story on the Today show this morning. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if what you said, with regards to this all being one big publicity stunt was true.

Also lol @ Sue.

[ScylaX]

My post will not follow your arguing because it's off-topic, so :
The human being wasn't born to be subject to an absolute authority, it isn't made to be mechanic. "The end justifies the means" is a truncated thought, it's like thinking utopian dictatorship is beneficial because there's a high repression of crime (aka no crime!!!! (ps that's totally wrong)) and the society is really "steady". And I mean, come on, it's just like they forgot their child had feelings and was aware of itself.

The problem is in their logic. In the eyes of the society, of course, your "human value" doesn't worth anything because you're judged according to what you're able to do. But a human being HAS to be itself, and not the product of a strict-like-hell education. The human being needs its batch of "debauchery", it needs a life that is full of different colors, he needs to learn from its error and by itself, not by an ubiquitous control over him that makes him the puppet of external ideals, that's how the human being is, if the "wrong things" can't be removed, it's because we're plural, and not socially monists.

This artificial way of life is against our inherent "moral" laws because of how "squared" it is, the higher you're strict and represive, the wronger you get (of course it's not like I thought we needed no limit, but there's a goddamn fair media for each thing, for each person). Perfection is NOT human. Trying to reach it is pernicious and will lead to bad consequences over your psychology.

[XCV]

Originally Posted by HoneyMelonCalibrator

Yeah, I saw this story on the Today show this morning. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if what you said, with regards to this all being one big publicity stunt was true.

Also lol @ Sue.

This.

With regards to the thread:

[There has to be some sort of vocational hierarchy in this world. Suppose that everyone, literally everyone, raised their children in this fashion and expected them to be professors at Yale or something such. We'd get a utopian society, the concept of which was mentioned briefly in Brave New World. If the world was composed mostly of high-prestige jobs, then who'd wash their dishes? They certainly wouldn't. It's human nature to have an attitude such as that. The working poor may be an eyesore to higher society, but they do serve a useful function, and therefore merit sustenance. A minor point, but an important one nevertheless. Their parenting technique may produce generally more successful adults; however, the upper class that they subsequently join is filled with just as many Americans who made their way in the world by desire to work, among other things. To paraphrase Confucius, "Choose a job you enjoy, and you will never work a day in your life."]

There is little reason to be perfectionistic. The fact of the matter is, no matter how hard you work, no matter how hard you're pushed, there will always be someone ahead of you, whether by natural talent or an inhuman work ethic (or both.) Having participated in quizbowl and variants for a full decade and counting, I can testify that although I have a talent for it, and though I love it and therefore work at it like a madman, I've (and by that I mean my team) been beaten dozens of times. The fact that most of them were Asians probably proves the point that I'm trying to contradict, but a fair amount of Americans have done it as well, including Americans that had far more resources than we do, and Americans that have fewer. Admittedly, my attitude toward life in general (there are exceptions) is basically that if I can't do a given task in a fairly short amount of time then trying to accomplish it is moot at the present time. This is because I believe knowledge, and skill in general, is based on subconscious pattern recognition and intuition. In short, practice does make perfect, but burnout does exist. I apply myself without exhausting myself, and it's worked for me.

In summary, there is no need to be perfectionistic. Being human is good enough for most employers, and social Darwinism will take it from there. Talent rises to the top.

Sheesh, I could write more, but I've been doing so for a couple hours at least.
I'll stop here.

[dag12]

Originally Posted by ScylaX

My post will not follow your arguing because it's off-topic, so :
The human being wasn't born to be subject to an absolute authority, it isn't made to be mechanic. "The end justifies the means" is a truncated thought, it's like thinking utopian dictatorship is beneficial because there's a high repression of crime (aka no crime!!!! (ps that's totally wrong)) and the society is really "steady". And I mean, come on, it's just like they forgot their child had feelings and was aware of itself.

The problem is in their logic. In the eyes of the society, of course, your "human value" doesn't worth anything because you're judged according to what you're able to do. But a human being HAS to be itself, and not the product of a strict-like-hell education. The human being needs its batch of "debauchery", it needs a life that is full of different colors, he needs to learn from its error and by itself, not by an ubiquitous control over him that makes him the puppet of external ideals, that's how the human being is, if the "wrong things" can't be removed, it's because we're plural, and not socially monists.

This artificial way of life is against our inherent "moral" laws because of how "squared" it is, the higher you're strict and represive, the wronger you get (of course it's not like I thought we needed no limit, but there's a goddamn fair media for each thing, for each person). Perfection is NOT human. Trying to reach it is pernicious and will lead to bad consequences over your psychology.

This is the most awkwardly phrased post that I have ever seen.
But anyway.

Personally, as an Asian, I find it extremely disturbing that this article seems to generalize all Asian parents to be this way. It certainly helps to perpetrate many of the stereotypes regarding Asians...

In response to the article:

http://www.jeanhsu.com/?p=229

Check this article out. I imagine it would be received more warmly.

[ichliebekase]

Yea, I'll admit I didn't read this entire thread. But this is all I want to address.

Originally Posted by Minati

Actually, it's not a "personal attack", but rather an attack on the entirety of this community in general.. You'll find that people who excel in such things mentioned by Amy Chua (ex. violin, piano, academics) will most likely NEVER spend time on such trivial things such as Stepmania, FFR, or video games in general. Of course, "video games" could be replaced with getting wasted on a Tuesday afternoon, ignoring schoolwork, and much more.

You ma'am obviously know nothing. I excelled in viola for almost 10 years and I play video games. I wasn't brought up by an "Amy Chua" Asian mom.

I also happen to know at least 2 others who are the same as me, one plays violin much better than any person I've ever known and a guy who plays viola and him and I have competed for years. None of us had the "Amy Chua" Asian mom.

I also know of a few others on this site who play musical instruments with massive amounts of skill [Jtehanonymous to be the first to come to mind]. And guess what. We all play FFR and have played this game for many years. Does that mean we're all wasting our lives even though we all still excel in music and are leading well-rounded lives?

You should really watch what you say because you are also one of those kids that plays this game and you're a lot better than the average FFR player...

Originally Posted by New Article posted by dag

First generation immigrants want the best for their children, as do all parents, but they really are not that qualified to judge what will lead to a successful and fulfilling life in the United States. Their narrow-minded formula for success (great grades, ivy league, medical school, high paying job) may work for some, but it alienates those who might find success elsewhere.

This is the main part I completely agree with. What if a child is a good dancer? What if the child has the golden voice? Also, who named people such as Amy Chua the mom-of-the-year and gave them the utmost right to say what is right and wrong? Every parent is going to raise their child to the way they want and there is nothing that anyone can say because it is their child and no one else's. I won't allow a single person tell me how to raise my child when he/she comes in July. I was raised one way, I will not raise my child the way I was raised.

[ScylaX]

@dag21 Well, I can't help it, English isn't my mother tongue ;_; So making long and developed phrases like this is quite awkward in itself.

[dag12]

Originally Posted by ScylaX

@dag21 Well, I can't help it, English isn't my mother tongue ;_; So making long and developed phrases like this is quite awkward in itself.

Haha, well, at least I understood what you were trying to convey - which I can't say is necessarily the case for some people.