On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by yo man im awesome

Not... really. Jacking is just another pattern, vibrating is an innate ability in and of itself. It's not something you just "learn". With the amount of practice most D6-D7 players put in, would you argue that all of us are just "able" to vibrate?

Follow Luis in the next year to see him practice vibrating for DP trill. It is man, we all just dont put enough (if not any) effort in that particular skill so it looks impossible. The point that vibrating "is an innate ability" makes no sense though; you can say you are less skilled at it than others, but with practice you'll still see improvement man.

ALSO, just for fun, pretty much every (or almost) arguments saying we should keep CP in lvlranks could be used to say vRofl is a legit file which is so damn wrong hahaha

@Alex: You probably didnt start at vibrating 180bpm though. And really, you have to acknowledge the fact that the keyboard you play on makes a difference too, as it does for any skill in this game.

[TheSaxRunner05]

I don't think 299 players have learned to vibrate, I think many used an illegal altered key set up to achieve the FC. That would have many people ranked above people who played the file with greater skill.

[yo man im awesome]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

Follow Luis in the next year to see him practice vibrating for DP trill. It is man, we all just dont put enough (if not any) effort in that particular skill so it looks impossible. The point that vibrating "is an innate ability" makes no sense though; you can say you are less skilled at it than others, but with practice you'll still see improvement man.

ALSO, just for fun, pretty much every (or almost) arguments saying we should keep CP in lvlranks could be used to say vRofl is a legit file which is so damn wrong hahaha

DP's trill isn't vibrating though; it's still a regular trill. I fast one, but not vibrating level I would say. And are you really going to the DP trill to Crowdpleaser's? Besides, maybe Luis is someone who has that ability to vibrate. I can tell you I physically can't.

And what argument makes vRofl a legit file? Because no one is going to legitimately try and defend that.

[Izzy]

The real problem here is combo based scoring. Just enable raw scoring as the default and getting a miss on this no longer matters.

[AlexDest]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

@Alex: You probably didnt start at vibrating 180bpm though. And really, you have to acknowledge the fact that the keyboard you play on makes a difference too, as it does for any skill in this game.

From my experience, I did start out vibrating 180~ BPM 16th jacks, and I wasn't even close to being a D7 player in 2008.

I've used 6 or more keyboards out of my years of playing. All fully functional, very responsive, different key feels and switches... and couldn't ever vibrate over 180 BPM.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by yo man im awesome

DP's trill isn't vibrating though; it's still a regular trill. I fast one, but not vibrating level I would say. And are you really going to the DP trill to Crowdpleaser's? Besides, maybe Luis is someone who has that ability to vibrate. I can tell you I physically can't.

And what argument makes vRofl a legit file? Because no one is going to legitimately try and defend that.

Kmay's arguments and some others would be defending that lol.

But yeah: "but not vibrating level I would say" too subjective since I could ask any player "what is the line between trilling/jacking/rolling/etc and vibrating ?" no player would give me the same answer. And really, you "physically can't", really ? If that was true, you would have problems in your arms lol. It's all about tensing muscles in your forearms That's it. If you tell me that it's impossible to develop then idk man

[EzExZeRo7497]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

Follow Luis in the next year to see him practice vibrating for DP trill. It is man, we all just dont put enough (if not any) effort in that particular skill so it looks impossible. The point that vibrating "is an innate ability" makes no sense though; you can say you are less skilled at it than others, but with practice you'll still see improvement man.

@Alex: You probably didnt start at vibrating 180bpm though. And really, you have to acknowledge the fact that the keyboard you play on makes a difference too, as it does for any skill in this game.

That's not how vibro works. It really is an innate ability, you can improve vibrating consistency but definitely not vibrating speed. Luis might be able to do the Death Piano trill consistently in the future but he'll more than likely will never be able to nail the Crowdpleaser trill. The DP trill is much slower and although it's longer, it doesn't mean that 480 BPM trilling is any less possible. Even if you could trill that fast for a short period, the transition right after (a [23] jump) would ruin your score most of the time because of a lack of control.

Some people just aren't born with the right genetics and all to be able to tense up their wrists or forearms that easily nor efficiently. Practice can only take you so far, but you'll end up hitting a physical limit. Crowdpleaser's trill is pretty far beyond most players' physical jacking limits. Same goes with a lot of things. People will practice all they could but they will still end hitting a physical plateau, not just in vibration speed, but raw speed as well.

[dAnceguy117]

everyone will have different physical limits. vibrating is only one example, though it's a very clear one.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by EzExZeRo7497

That's not how vibro works. It really is an innate ability, you can improve vibrating consistency but definitely not vibrating speed. Luis might be able to do the Death Piano trill consistently in the future but he'll more than likely will never be able to nail the Crowdpleaser trill. The DP trill is much slower and although it's longer, it doesn't mean that 480 BPM trilling is any less possible. Even if you could trill that fast for a short period, the transition right after (a [23] jump) would ruin your score most of the time because of a lack of control.

Some people just aren't born with the right genetics and all to be able to tense up their wrists or forearms that easily nor efficiently. Practice can only take you so far, but you'll end up hitting a physical limit. Crowdpleaser's trill is pretty far beyond most players' physical jacking limits. Same goes with a lot of things. People will practice all they could but they will still end hitting a physical plateau, not just in vibration speed, but raw speed as well.

how is practicing Vibrating any different from practicing one-handed trills for example ?

[___________]

The problem with CP is that it requires vibrating or "cheating" to AAA. Few people are born with the ability to vibrate, and it's not a skill that can really be improved. Add that to the combo-based nature of the game, and you have a file that only 1-2 people can actually do. The fact that almost all of the 299 FCs are either overlay or double setup is saying something. At least all of the other hard files are combo'able, if hard to PA.

+100000000, remove from game, file is just plain stupid

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

how is practicing Vibrating any different from practicing one-handed trills for example ?

Everyone can trill, not everyone can vibrate. |:

[Dynam0]

My original post way back was focused on DP/RATO oops. But on the issue of the actual thread:

It's been said that Crowdpleaser ranks aren't an accurate measure of skill due to 'gimmicks' being needed to FC the file. This is true and I myself have only FC'd it once by vibrating it. Improving your max vibration speed is totally doable but it requires hours upon hours of practicing it, so it seems much more efficient to learn the overlay method. 99% of the FC scores are not with a conventional technique, however I would argue that it is still a valid skill; the only issue is that it is only useful in really special cases like learning to read with a terrible background. As it stands now, I would move this to token lev ranks.

As I said earlier though, the much more important issue at hand is how scores are calculated. Giving a percentage of the scoring to combo is intuitive but the weight is absolutely atrocious given that boos do not break your combo. If we were to fix the combo-scoring issue, it would remove the stigma around ANY hard files being in the game (but I don't mean 'special' cases like Crowdpleaser). It would be an enormous step in the right direction and is a much more urgent issue than this less involved Crowdpleaser debate which will likely be resolved soon in the blink of an eye.

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by ___________

The problem with CP is that it requires vibrating or "cheating" to AAA. Few people are born with the ability to vibrate, and it's not a skill that can really be improved. Add that to the combo-based nature of the game, and you have a file that only 1-2 people can actually do. The fact that almost all of the 299 FCs are either overlay or double setup is saying something. At least all of the other hard files are combo'able, if hard to PA.

+100000000, remove from game, file is just plain stupid

Go look at staiain and tell me people can suddenly just improve vibrating (hint: they can't)

Don't compare Death Piano's trill to Crowdpleaser. There is a 70 BPM difference. Death Piano does require slower vibrating for a few seconds (I consider anything that can't be FCd with wristjacking vibrating, just different levels of vibrating) but it is nothing compared to Crowdpleaser.

Files that measure skill is a pretty strong argument because well, a file like Crowdpleaser encourages cheating whereas Pants involves jumpstream and one handed control despite it having offsync sections and blue note syndrome at the ending jumpstreams. Both these files are from the same stepper.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

As I said earlier though, the much more important issue at hand is how scores are calculated. Giving a percentage of the scoring to combo is intuitive but the weight is absolutely atrocious given that boos do not break your combo. If we were to fix the combo-scoring issue, it would remove the stigma around ANY hard files being in the game (but I don't mean 'special' cases like Crowdpleaser). It would be an enormous step in the right direction and is a much more urgent issue than this less involved Crowdpleaser debate which will likely be resolved soon in the blink of an eye.

Basically use raw scoring or something similar right?

I'm not even sure this point needs to be argued anymore, I think by now people who are being rational about it realize how terrible combo scoring is for leader boards, and for representing one's skill on a file. Just don't expect it to show up any time soon, as great as it would be.

As far as CP goes, it should probably be moved to token ranks at the very least. As has already been established, it is an extremely easy file, with only one real difficult section, which can be easily attacked with double setup if one pleases. On top of that with combo scoring, pretty much making any non FC score complete shit, and the fact that so many others have FC'd in a similar fashion, one could easily squeeze their way into the leader boards without a bat of an eye.

Even with the transition into raw score, the trill could be scored on extremely well with DS (to the point of a potential AAA if lucky enough). Frankly, I think we'd have to police the living shit out of that file to ensure everyone wasn't just cheating that particular section (probably with video proof or something, since people could probably pass as legit through replay analysis alone if they don't do some crazy 1 frame / 0 frame crap). It wouldn't really be feasible anyway, since not everyone has the video recording tools necessary.

At least as a token file people will not be so tempted to DS, and if they do, at least it won't be on a public file (since people seem to care about public ranks way more than token ones).

[Untimely Friction]

Its a big trill no one can aaa, who cares this much like w0w. Other than the trill the rests easy and its a fun song

big fat NO from me

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

how is practicing Vibrating any different from practicing one-handed trills for example ?

One-handed trilling is a controlled motion; vibrating is not.

[andy-o24]

I was under the impression that there was pretty much a combo limit on CP, around 490 or something before/during the trill was pretty standard for players who could hit the stream before it and the bursts that follow. I know I have done this, and I am very far from a skilled player.

This leads to a standardized *max* combo which all players are gunning for and the distinction is then PA before the trill and PA after the trill. Since there are 299 FCs on the file, the people who play the file and have not cheated, or legitimately FCd it are trying to get rank 300. You can *ignore* the FCs if you think they are cheated and impossible to attain and try to get the best possible score seemingly possible.

Keep it in the ranks. It is possible, just ludicrously difficult.

-o24

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by Untimely Friction

who cares this much like w0w

There's a 64th section requiring dumb luck and then a 64th trill ending in a jump with lots of filler notes in between those two sections.

It's a file taken seriously enough due to being in public ranks that I specifically know players that literally cheated for a score on it. By cheating I don't mean overlay or double setup, I mean other methods.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

One-handed trilling is a controlled motion; vibrating is not.

Please explain more in-depth, not sure I understand ;o

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

Please explain more in-depth, not sure I understand ;o

You can change positions to improve how you control one handed trills as well as changing key setups etc. but vibrating is a one-directional jackhammer motion.

Wristjacking is also a controlled motion because it's at a speed where you can try changing your hand positioning. But vibrating is too fast. The higher the speed, the more control is lost and it's exponential.