Acceptable Suicide?

[Mezo]

I wandered across... and I think I shall add to this.

We can always consider the events and feelings that can cause one to want to commit suicide, but try thinking about what the results would be to the person. We do most anything in order to benefit ourselves in some way, whether it be to feel pleasure, satisfaction, revenge,etc... or even some sort of feeling of being a hero (for those who have become martyrs) ... but the thing about death is that after we are dead, we can't benefit at all from these feelings or actually from anything anymore. People want to die in order to escape pain or in order to help another, but they pretty much don't know what is going to happen after that (unless u are a devout believer in heaven or hell or any other form of after-life).

Many seem to believe that when we die we will then be at peace and be able to think "hey, I'm not in pain anymore. this is great" or be able to look down upon the world after death and say "hey, I'm a hero. I did a good thing by sacrificing myself to save that baby." No one knows what happens after death, but I still don't think we will be conscious of anything and would actually be able to think of our lives... but maybe we can; who knows. This could be why so many people want to be remembered after death; it's almost as if they think their reputation will stay with them personally after death.

Another point is that people may want to die in order to help others; this is a noble act, but it only applies to you personally if you are alive. When you are dead you will not even have the ability to care about others (again, I might be wrong... if angels do exist ;P ) so, if u die sacrificing yourself, but you aren't able to save the baby, I don't think it will matter to you anyway; you'll be dead... no more emotions to even bother you. Sure the family of the baby will be sad and your friends and family will be sad, but you're dead... you won't care. I mean, if you say that suicide is very selfish, you are right... but most anything we do is to benefit us in some way, whether it be emotionally or physically. One could just as well run away from their problems and go live in a mountain and not kill themselves, but still cause as much emotional torment for friends and family.

When we can't handle our own emotions or physical pain we might sometimes turn to the idea of suicide.I know it sounds all selfish, but death is an escape from responsibility... just, it's not a wise decision to kill yourself if you think it will cause the pain to go away, because pain only exists if there is pleasure, and pleasure goes away too once you die. It makes me wonder what it must feel like to not exist as a conscious mix of body and mind. maybe you become one with the universe ... or maybe u just die and become dirt lol.

We, as humans, are probably the only species (on earth) who even ponders about death. Where we go after we die is an answer that evades us, so we make up a bunch of different ideas that could be plausible. (heaven, hell, purgatory, next life, etc) Since we only know about living, we relate death to some form of living... that is one reason why suicide seems to be a plausible way to escape pain. Suicide pretty much goes against natural instinct for survival, but we (and even certain animals) seem to do it anyway either to help species or survival or for no reason at all beyond personal reasons (that I can see) Death is a pretty scary thing and we are hardwired to avoid it... but we all know we will die one day anyway... so if a person makes a conscious decision to kill themselves, then I wouldn't say it is wrong. It is another decision, just the last one a person will ever make...

sry for the long post... I just have lots of ideas, just no one around here (school) who wants to argue about death with me :/ . such a depressing topic it is lol

[ledwix]

I don't see how suicide is courageous. I understand it takes a lot of "courage" to suicide, because of all the pressure mounting, but wouldn't it take a lot more real courage to suck it up and move on with one's life? People usually call people who face their problems and get around them courageous, not people who run away from them forever. It's much easier to inject some cyanide into an apple and eat it or steer toward a concrete wall while driving on the freeway than it is to solve one's major problems in life.

Saying suicide is always acceptable is saying people should reserve the right to suicide within their judgment. But if people have the right to suicide, then, IMO, there should be some sort of age requirement. (not that most suicidal people can make good decisions about this kind of thing, as it is) Like I alluded to before, a young child is too ignorant and naive to make major decisions about his/her life. Isn't this what parents are for: instilling objectives and moral values into their kids?

I'd guess it simply depends on whether we think anyone should have the right to end anyone's life, or whether we believe there's some kind of fate or grand scheme of things. In many cases, people believe people don't have the right to end another person's life at will; its murderous. In others, it's not.

[Mezo]

an age requirement for suicide ... maybe. nah that would just encourage the idea and make it seem like a normal thing to do... though other countries have euthanasia as a pretty normal and legal option. so I don't know. People should be allowed to do wut they want, but people are also stupid so we need to set laws for ourselves that are sposed to make sure we don't do more stupid things. Some people would kill and rape for no reason and kill themselves if they couldn't get the last popsicle from the freezer. Not everyone is as morally and mentally developed as some of the fine posters on this site

here's an interesting wiki on moral development. Some people never seem to get past the first stages, even when they are adults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlber...al_development

[frickfrock99]

lol

[sjoecool1991]

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission

In most cases, suicide is for the weak. For example, if a junkie gets AIDS from using a tainted needle when getting a hit of smack, then it's his fault. If somebody embezzles people and steals, yet bad fortune befalls him and he goes broke, and possibly caught, it's his fault. Those who commit suicide are cowards. They cannot face up to what they have done, and want an easy way out. The world would be better off without them.

But there is an exception, at least in my eyes. Have you ever heard of Huntington's Disease? It is characterized by a slow slip into dementia, it causes speech impairments, and extreme, shooting pain all across the body constantly. You linger for 10-15 years before you finally die. I once saw a moving documentary on a mother who lost her sons and father to this disease. Her father died after 15 years of developing the disease. She killed two of her sons after they screamed and begged for mercy, for her to kill them after suffering for years with this disease. She eventually did it. It was ruled assisted suicide, and she got 5 years, but served a 1/3 of it. She was not looked upon as a monster for what she did, in fact it caused a stir, and people went outside the courthouse protesting her punishment.

To be honest, that is a fate worse than death. Somebody with such a disease would rather die than live, as characterized by what I just said. Somebody who wants to commit suicide is not a coward when such extreme circumstances surround the situation and the individual. Now Huntington's disease is not the only exception, but suffering to an extreme like that is torture to the person. If you were being tortured, would you want to live or die? Exactly my point.

Also, not to exclude an important facet: Ritualistic or religious suicide. People who do such an act, such as seppuku, don't do it out of cowardice or because they couldn't handle life. They do it for honor, or religious reasons, and those people are exonerated, and possibly looked upon as heroes when they die. Samurai who committed seppuku were freed of any dishonor they got upon losing a battle. If their daimyos died, they also committed seppuku.

So in both cases, I do not see a person killing themselves a coward. They died because it was their obligation (Though others may not agree with it, but if they must do so by their code of honor or religion, so be it). And for the first reason...it's hard to comment on that. I nor you will ever understand unless you or somebody close to us was tangled in such a sad state. But really, other than the aforementioned exceptions, suicide is for cowards. Even if they were family, it would be a dishonorable way to go, and they would not be remembered well, even if their death is sad. (Or at least I wouldn't remember them well, I cannot speak for others).

This is largely an opinion, so please don't take all of what I said in verbatim.


~Bynary Fission

Huntington's Disease usually does not develop until later in your life though.
It is rare for symptoms to start showing before you are even 50.
It is also a genetic disease.
My grandmother has it.
And I am pretty sure my father does as well.
Guess what the means?


And no, I will not commit suicide.

[devonin]

And no, I will not commit suicide.

Like everyone in relative good health and a good mental state, you cannot possibly know how you might feel decades from now, suffering through intense and terminal pain.

[Frozen Beat]

You guys all got a point. However, the average human will only believe what they want to, and a human's beliefs as an individual, is for themselves, and who will understand? If they believe that they will go to heaven, it is probably what the want to believe. If they want to believe that they're doing a good deed, that is what they'll believe, and.

Suicide...one thing that humans fear, loathe, hate, and yet. Come to accomplish for their own decision. Sick.

[devonin]

I'm finding it difficult to unpack exactly what you're trying to get at here, you're a little unclear in your phrasing, could you reiterate?

The impression that I'm getting is you're arguing for the claim that people make their own decisions entirely independantly in a way that can't be understood by anybody else? That a person's reasoning for why they hold a belief can't be communicated to someone else in a way that lets them comprehend it?

I'm really not sure I can support that. There are enough things intrinsic to all people to give us a medium of communication to explain why we believe how we believe.

As to your last claim, I don't think you can speak absolutely like that. I don't fear suicide, I don't loathe suicide, and I don't hate suicide, and yet I'm human. I suspect there are others (Like everybody speaking in support of acceptable circumstances to justify suicide) who feel the same way.

You can say that someone who kills themselves is sick in the sense of unwell, on the grounds that the drive to survive is intrinsic to a properly functioning living human, and if someone loses the will to live, that they must be unwell in some capacity, but I get the impression that you were using 'sick' in the 'disgusting' sense, and I don't really think I can support that.

[Frozen Beat]

Lol. Lets put it this way. Who wants suicide?

[sjoecool1991]

Originally Posted by devonin

Like everyone in relative good health and a good mental state, you cannot possibly know how you might feel decades from now, suffering through intense and terminal pain.

my grandmother never wanted to commit suicide, and she has lived with it for a long time now.

[operationstrawbarry]

Bottom Line:

There is always 2 sides to a story. All opinions are correct (In many cases), but the fact is, you can still get arrested for assisting to help someone suicide if they wanted you're help. Its still considered murder but in an assistant lv. So its a loose loose situation. Wheather you think its acceptable or not, you will still be helping to take a life away and it just depends if you can either get away with it or if you could suffer through feeling guilty about taking someone's life away. This all changes if its a direct order from a high authority (not god), or if there is permisson. If not, then the morality is a lot more complex and its wheather you want to cope with the results at the end. I would never assist someone to suicide and even if I had permission, I would never do it.

my 2cent.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Frozen Beat

Lol. Lets put it this way. Who wants suicide?

People who feel that death is preferable to their current standard of life. People with clinical depression that gets too severe or goes unmedicated, people suffering from painful terminal illness, people facing the liklihood of brain death. There are people, and not just crazy people. Personally if there were a legal way to assert such, I would leave instructions with my family to euthenize me in the event that I suffered permanant loss of brain function. I don't think I'm sick, I don't think I'm crazy, I don't think there is anything hateful or loathesome about wanting to avoid that situation.

my grandmother never wanted to commit suicide, and she has lived with it for a long time now.

So? One anecdotal case doesn't prove or disprove anything. You aren't your grandmother, I'm not you're grandmother. Neither of us can -guarentee- that we would react in that situation in the same way your grandmother did. Perhaps she has a strong will, perhaps she believes that suicide will damn her to hell, I don't know, because I don't know her or her beliefs. But one case doesn't prove the whole.

[Izzi]

I think people should have the right to end their own life if they are in their right state of mind. Shouldn't be an option under the influence of drugs or alcohol though. If anyones read the giver that had an interesting way of letting people do that.

[Lipidman]

Originally Posted by devonin

But is it enough to justify your motives to only yourself? Someone who murders having completely justified the act in their own mind are still held accountable by the existing laws against murder, unless their reasoning happens to coincide with the accepted justifications (Self-defense etc)

But is that really a fair comparison? You're life is your own, but murder is taking the life of someone else, that which isn't yours to claim.

[devonin]

The defense was "I can justify my motives to myself, which should make it acceptable" and I simply pointed out "You can justify all kinds of things to yourself, which doesn't make them acceptable, why should this be an exception?"

I was waiting for a response from Tsugo that never came.

I have no fundamental problem with people killing themselves as long as by so doing they aren't screwing over any dependants.

[devonin]

Except I mean it in the literal official sense. I could care less if your suicide makes your best friend really sad. What I care about is if you have a child who is financially dependant on you for survival etc.

When I say "A dependant" I mean it in the sense of "Depends on you for having their basic life necessaties met" If someone is going to starve, or become homeless because you killed yourself, I have a problem with it. If they just care about you a lot, that's your decision to inflict it on them or not.

[Lipidman]

Originally Posted by devonin

The defense was "I can justify my motives to myself, which should make it acceptable" and I simply pointed out "You can justify all kinds of things to yourself, which doesn't make them acceptable, why should this be an exception?"

But you're generalising what was said which was intended to be exclusive in the first place. In this case, some people believe that suicide is an exception in which self-justification is all that really matters.

[Zythus]

Originally Posted by KgZ

I understand what you mean, however you don't think love and affection is a necessity?

Let's say you're a teenager who committed suicide. Although you may be right that economical necessaties probably won't be affected, but emotional necessities will definitely be inflicted. For example, If you had a younger brother or sister, it could be traumatic. They might have to go into psychological therapy, and they might never be the same way again. Is that okay with you, as long as you think you made the right decision for yourself regardless of the people around you?

I believe this was discussed in the last two pages. Devonin said basic life necessities met, and I would agree. People who are affected emotionally by a suicided friend or family, it is their weakness. They cast grief upon themselves, its not justified to blame the suicider for his/her actions because it is his/her life. They justified to themselves that suicide is honorable or as eventuality, and so be it.

Humans have such wasted empathy, especially love.

[devonin]

As long as everybody involved in something is a consenting adult in sound mind, I support the right of those people to do absolutely anything they want. That certainly extends to killing themselves.

Though as I said, if you are the sole provider for dependants who would suddenly lack in basic necessities of life (And no, love is not a necessity to be blunt) those are people who are involved in your decision, and being not consenting adults in sound mind, mean that you don't have the right to do it. If no such other people exist, knock yourself out, as it were.

[Das Mustafah]

Originally Posted by devonin

That certainly extends to killing themselves.

lol cuz ur canada

I think that legally the results of the subconscious can be considered not to be the will of the individual, like those people who go crazy and kill people and don't go to jail for it.

OP, I'm guessing you're talking about moral accountability since you didn't mention anything about legal issues.

Personally I find suicide to rarely be a well thought out and rationally considered option, like when people kill themselves over money matters or other (to me) trivial things like interpersonal relationships.

Kill yourself because your wife or child died and I'll understand. Kill yourself because people make fun of you or you're broke, and I'll scorn you. Kill yourself because you're chemically imbalanced or otherwise mentally ill (or maybe physically), and I'll be intrigued.