Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

[qqwref]

Stavie, I didn't think we needed to say it again, but I will: this is not a system in which an X-point requirement on one song is the same difficulty as an X-point requirement on another song. They're just not comparable. We're using as many ratings as we need to provide enough differentiation between people who can barely read a song and people who can pretty much AAA it, and songs which are more difficult do not necessarily need more requirements.

[TC_Halogen]

One thing that I'm noticing within the FGO list that is VERY appealing to me is that the songs with AAA scores for their top requirements are relatively constant/consistent for an extended duration. A few considerations from me (and while I do share some that stavie does, I share them for the reason of chart consistency, and not difficulty).

Winter Wind Etude:
12: AAA - Winter Wind Etude is a very constant chart. At 12 points, it's also very clear that it's a brutally hard requirement to make. A 12 point AAA requirement would show that you have mastered the consistency required for a good score on this.

DeVouR
10: 1 or fewer - a large majority of DeVouR's difficulty is consisted within framer discrepancies (artificial and uncontrollable difficulty), it also has some pretty disgusting bursts in somewhat arbitrary spots.

Grist
10: 1 or fewer - same reason as DeVouR.

I'd also consider changing the top four requirements for Holy Orders and loosening them slightly/proportionally.

This list is REALLY strong. You guys did a great job on it.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by qqwref

Stavie, I didn't think we needed to say it again, but I will: this is not a system in which an X-point requirement on one song is the same difficulty as an X-point requirement on another song. They're just not comparable. We're using as many ratings as we need to provide enough differentiation between people who can barely read a song and people who can pretty much AAA it, and songs which are more difficult do not necessarily need more requirements.

I understand that between difficulties like a VC 7 doesn't mean the VC is harder than an FMO 6, that's understandable. But within the same difficulty I thought there was discrepancy which was the reason the harder files have more points to get within one difficulty. But I understand what you're saying still...even saying that, I feel the gap within the those songs I listed themselves are too small, I still feel those adjustments would make more sense, even just looking within the song.

Also, if that's what you're doing then I hope that your tier level is not determined by total tier points. If tier points on a song are determined by how well you do on that song compared to others on that song, and not how well you do compared to others on ALL songs (which is what you're saying, which is that these tier ratings on songs are given by how many tier points per song is required to differentiate between who can read a song and who can PA it, not how well people do in comparison to eachother within the difficulty like FGO) then how could this possibly work? That would result in what you have, a AAA on FN giving a 9 and a AAA on Rooftop gives an 8. Clearly AAA'ing Rooftops takes significantly more skill, but if someone BF's both files and BF's tons of files, but can't nail AAA's, BF'ing GGC and Rooftops takes much more skill than AAA'ing FN and Lolo, yet the latter would have more tier points, and thus the representation of their comparative skills would be way, way off. By having easier songs WITHIN a difficulty giving more tier points than harder ones, obviously the tier points are going to misrepresent skill because BF's on infinitely harder songs could give less points than a AAA on a very, very easy song. Outside difficulties make sense, if you get a 6/6 on an FMO, it doesn't matter that you have 7/7 on C songs because every FMO player you're comparing too should have around those points from lower difficulties, but within the difficulty is where discrepancy lies between players of similar skill and I feel it's very important to scale songs within the difficulty based on their difficulties. Just like Winter Wind is a 12, if it were 10 for a BF on Winter Wind and 12 for a AAA on Rage Template would that make sense? No, but if for some reason that's all the points required to have a solid line for player ability on Wind and Rage then it would make sense? I'm lost here, what exactly are these tier points trying to represent? Tiers and skill between players of similar levels or just points to gnab on songs to see how you do on each song in comparison to other players? We already have level ranks for that.


Also, let me say one thing, the fact that out of 34 songs on the hardest list to judge and only 6 give me any thoughts of issues obviously you did a good job, bravo. And I have little to no complaints about the FMO list.

[BahamutZER0]

Think I'm with Stavie on trying to be somewhat consistent on difficulty vs point value within a given FFR difficulty, if only so far as making the max points per song consistent. Not that I can actually play any of these FGOs at any level of competence :B

[i love you]

Originally Posted by stavie33

*insert issues*
That's all my issues, everything else is fine

This seems very reasonable for the most point however I disagree with your GGC having little gaps for the first five requirements and then having bigger ones in the other half. I think what I might do is make FN have a X/8 requirement and the adventures of lolo an X/8 as well. Not sure why lolo was not a X/8 in the first place. Also, I think the requirement you gave Holy Orders is also not so balanced as well but I DO agree that it certainly does needs to be changed to X/9. I think once I change those requirements I have stated, it will balance out everything you had an issue over except for maybe rage template and 12 bar bloops which I will have to look over closely.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Winter Wind Etude:
12: AAA - Winter Wind Etude is a very constant chart. At 12 points, it's also very clear that it's a brutally hard requirement to make. A 12 point AAA requirement would show that you have mastered the consistency required for a good score on this.

DeVouR
10: 1 or fewer - a large majority of DeVouR's difficulty is consisted within framer discrepancies (artificial and uncontrollable difficulty), it also has some pretty disgusting bursts in somewhat arbitrary spots.

Grist
10: 1 or fewer - same reason as DeVouR.

I'd also consider changing the top four requirements for Holy Orders and loosening them slightly/proportionally.

I definitely agree with Grist, DeVouR and Holy Orders but I am kinda iffy about making WWE a 12-point AAA because of that polyrhythm ending. It is consistent yes but that part is just evil! D:

For the sake of consistency though, it does make sense to make the max requirement an AAA so I will THINK about it. (poor leonid xd)

[TC_Halogen]

You've got a point. That poly-rhythm ending is beyond disgusting...

...personally, I can go either way. If you want to leave it at 1g, it's not a big difference considering once you botch up a run on that song, your score goes to like 2g+ anyway.

[i love you]

UPDATED! Let me know if something is wrong with this before I post it on the 3rd page! (:

*removed*

[TheSaxRunner05]

Looks good to me, release it asap! =p

[TC_Halogen]

I'm fine with Saddest RMX staying as x/8 due to the short length. Across Rooftops is a nice bundle of difficulty and it's dispersed all throughout the chart. I can agree with a x/9 change for that one, but with the currently listed requirements, it's fine.

[One Winged Angel]

Agreed with the bump on Saddest only because Reality is X/9 and Saddest isn't

AR's quite a bit more difficult to PA than some of the 9s listed (most notably stuff like Gunk Tar and Ketsarku), so I wouldn't mind the one-up on that one either. You might even consider giving Tageri a bump too but that one's really borderline.

[gnr61]

reality is also short, and even though *I* can't do it, like 400 people have 2g or less on it. how many people have bf's on across rooftops and saddest rmx again? cuz they're worth the same amt of points :v

imo, reality is an easy X/8 with AAA for top req (it seems comparable to Lolo and probably easier than Tageri).

keeping saddest as X/8/bf seems fine to me.

across rooftops X/9/AAA makes sense i think. it's long and consistently tricky, much more on par with nomina AAA than 4g on ketsarku (i mean wat)

honki also seems to give people trouble, so maybe X/8/bf since it's long and pretty erratic. i agree it's not a 9-pointer, but bf might smooth it out (i see it as comparable to sparkle downer, which is set up nicely)

going back to ketsarku, that might be an X/8... currently, doling out 8 points for 4 or less on it seems way over-generous. only way i can think of to smooth that over though would be to drop the 9pt req and call it X/8/bf. IMO there's harder fgo's sitting at X/8, and those seem reasonable as is.


i'm defs no expert on this stuff but jus my two cents :3

[[TeRa]]

tageri is easier than ketsarku imo, idk to move tageri up or ketsarku down
saddest is def x/9

idc though list is good enough

[i love you]

Originally Posted by subin

The only two songs that stood out for me were 'Across Rooftops' and 'Saddest RMX', but more-so the latter. I would think that their requirements can be dispersed accordingly to fit X/9 points. I am a little hesitant on 'Across Rooftops', and I guess there is no reason why it cannot stay as an X/8 point requirement. Thoughts?

I can definitely see Across Rooftops having X/9 points with an AAA as max since it is long and contains a variety of patterns. Also, it is very consistent and overall more challenging then some of the other X/9 listed. Saddest RMX I am a little iffy about making a X/9 due to it's length but I will admit that it is harder then some of the X/9 listed so it is possible that I will change that as well. I will see what other people in the community have to say about that.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

I'm fine with Saddest RMX staying as x/8 due to the short length. Across Rooftops is a nice bundle of difficulty and it's dispersed all throughout the chart. I can agree with a x/9 change for that one, but with the currently listed requirements, it's fine.

Alright, I will officially change across rooftops to a X/9. I think that will be a safe move since it seems like majority would like that anyway. As for Saddest RMX, it is possible that it will either stay as a X/8 with a BF or be changed to a X/9 with an AAA. I will have to look further into that.

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel

Agreed with the bump on Saddest only because Reality is X/9 and Saddest isn't

AR's quite a bit more difficult to PA than some of the 9s listed (most notably stuff like Gunk Tar and Ketsarku), so I wouldn't mind the one-up on that one either. You might even consider giving Tageri a bump too but that one's really borderline.

Now that I think about it, reality should really be a X/8 with an AAA as max since it is short and consistent. As for Saddest RMX, I am still thinking if that should be changed to a X/9 AAA. Across Rooftops will be changed to X/9 AAA and Ketsarku will most likely be reduced to an X/8. Tageri will most likely stay the same however it does have some framer issues in some of the rolls so it is possible that the max will be changed to BF. I will have to look further into that.

Originally Posted by gnr61

reality is also short, and even though *I* can't do it, like 400 people have 2g or less on it. how many people have bf's on across rooftops and saddest rmx again? cuz they're worth the same amt of points :v

imo, reality is an easy X/8 with AAA for top req (it seems comparable to Lolo and probably easier than Tageri).

keeping saddest as X/8/bf seems fine to me.

across rooftops X/9/AAA makes sense i think. it's long and consistently tricky, much more on par with nomina AAA than 4g on ketsarku (i mean wat)

honki also seems to give people trouble, so maybe X/8/bf since it's long and pretty erratic. i agree it's not a 9-pointer, but bf might smooth it out (i see it as comparable to sparkle downer, which is set up nicely)

going back to ketsarku, that might be an X/8... currently, doling out 8 points for 4 or less on it seems way over-generous. only way i can think of to smooth that over though would be to drop the 9pt req and call it X/8/bf. IMO there's harder fgo's sitting at X/8, and those seem reasonable as is.

I think at this point, I can agree with reality and ketsarku being reduced to X/8. Across rooftops will definitely be changed to X/9. As for Saddest RMX, I think I will bump that one to a X/9 AAA since it seems like majority would prefer that more than a X/8 BF.

Originally Posted by [TeRa]

tageri is easier than ketsarku imo, idk to move tageri up or ketsarku down
saddest is def x/9

It will probably be best if both tageri and ketsarku were at X/8. Saddest will definitely be bumped to a X/9.

--------------

Alright so here is what I am going to do for now:

Across Rooftops = X/9 with AAA as max
Ketsarku Mozgalom = X/8 with AAA as max <-- this is debatable
Reality = X/8 with AAA as max
Saddest RMX = X/9 with AAA as max <-- this is still debatable
Tageri = X/8 with BF as max (it contains some framer issues)


IMO this conflicts with:
Gunkienen Tarusuigin which currently has a X/9 AAA. Should probably be changed to X/8 AAA.

Tell me what you guys think about this. I really am trying to make this as reasonable as possible! (:

EDIT: Just so we are clear, I will also balance up the overall requirements due to these changes if you guys agree with this!

[One Winged Angel]

Yeah ily, that looks much better and is much more consistent with the other reqs. Only thing I'd really suggest at this point is perhaps making Ketsarku a BF for max 8/8. Much trickier than the other X/8's and requires proficiency in a wide variety of skillsets to score well on (rolls, burst technique, speed [ending translates to 270bpm 16ths iirc])

[gnr61]

agree with the fixes, including Gunk shifting to X/8/AAA. that'll add some nice variance in skillsets to the 8 pointers as well. agree with OWA that ketsarku should probably be X/8/bf, though. great work, sir : D

[stavie33]

Gunkien shifts to an 8 and the list looks dandy. Very good job guys!

[i love you]

UPDATED! This will be added to the 3rd page as well. Tell me if it is safe to finalize this! (:

1. A Quick Death [1651 Combo]
(10) - 1 or fewer
(9) - 5 or fewer
(8) - 12 or fewer
(7) - 20 or fewer
(6) - 50 or fewer
(5) - 80 or fewer
(4) - 150 or fewer
(3) - 250 or fewer
(2) - 400 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

2. Across Rooftops [2254 Combo] [LONG]
(9) - AAA
(8) - 4 or fewer
(7) - 9 or fewer
(6) - 20 or fewer
(5) - 40 or fewer
(4) - 70 or fewer
(3) - 100 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

3. Blue Rose [3622 Combo] [VERY LONG]
(9) - 1 or fewer
(8) - 5 or fewer
(7) - 10 or fewer
(6) - 20 or fewer
(5) - 40 or fewer
(4) - 75 or fewer
(3) - 150 or fewer
(2) - 300 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

4. Counter Clockwise Chant Pattern [1423 Combo]
(10) - 1 or fewer
(9) - 4 or fewer
(8) - 9 or fewer
(7) - 15 or fewer
(6) - 30 or fewer
(5) - 50 or fewer
(4) - 100 or fewer
(3) - 200 or fewer
(2) - 400 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

5. DeVouR [1478 Combo]
(10) - 1 or fewer
(9) - 4 or fewer
(8) - 9 or fewer
(7) - 20 or fewer
(6) - 40 or fewer
(5) - 70 or fewer
(4) - 150 or fewer
(3) - 250 or fewer
(2) - 400 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

6. Eclipse (Solar) [1445 Combo]
(11) - 1 or fewer
(10) - 3 or fewer
(9) - 9 or fewer
(8) - 20 or fewer
(7) - 50 or fewer
(6) - 80 or fewer
(5) - 120 or fewer
(4) - 200 or fewer
(3) - 300 or fewer
(2) - 500 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

7. Frictional Nevada [1325 Combo]
(8) - AAA
(7) - 3 or fewer
(6) - 9 or fewer
(5) - 20 or fewer
(4) - 40 or fewer
(3) - 70 or fewer
(2) - 150 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

8. Grand Galop Chromatique [2361 Combo] [LONG]
(9) - 1 or fewer
(8) - 4 or fewer
(7) - 9 or fewer
(6) - 15 or fewer
(5) - 30 or fewer
(4) - 60 or fewer
(3) - 100 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

9. Grist [1519 Combo]
(10) - 1 or fewer
(9) - 5 or fewer
(8) - 12 or fewer
(7) - 25 or fewer
(6) - 50 or fewer
(5) - 80 or fewer
(4) - 150 or fewer
(3) - 200 or fewer
(2) - 400 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

10. Gunkienen Tarusuigin [1489 Combo]
(8) - AAA
(7) - 3 or fewer
(6) - 9 or fewer
(5) - 20 or fewer
(4) - 40 or fewer
(3) - 70 or fewer
(2) - 150 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

11. Hardkore Atomic [1034 Combo]
(9) - 1 or fewer
(8) - 4 or fewer
(7) - 9 or fewer
(6) - 20 or fewer
(5) - 40 or fewer
(4) - 70 or fewer
(3) - 100 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

12. Holy Orders [2758 Combo] [LONG]
(9) - 1 or fewer
(8) - 5 or fewer
(7) - 12 or fewer
(6) - 25 or fewer
(5) - 50 or fewer
(4) - 80 or fewer
(3) - 150 or fewer
(2) - 300 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

13. honki sentai majirenjaa -MAJI eurobeat version- [1830 Combo] [LONG]
(8) - AAA
(7) - 6 or fewer
(6) - 15 or fewer
(5) - 30 or fewer
(4) - 50 or fewer
(3) - 100 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

14. I Hate The 80s [1008 Combo]
(9) - AAA
(8) - 4 or fewer
(7) - 9 or fewer
(6) - 15 or fewer
(5) - 30 or fewer
(4) - 60 or fewer
(3) - 120 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

15. J'ai Envie de Plaisir X2 [1652 Combo]
(10) - 1 or fewer
(9) - 5 or fewer
(8) - 15 or fewer
(7) - 40 or fewer
(6) - 70 or fewer
(5) - 100 or fewer
(4) - 150 or fewer
(3) - 250 or fewer
(2) - 400 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

16. Ketsarku Mozgalom [1635 Combo]
(8) - 1 or fewer
(7) - 4 or fewer
(6) - 9 or fewer
(5) - 25 or fewer
(4) - 50 or fewer
(3) - 85 or fewer
(2) - 150 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

17. Kidney Stone [1619 Combo]
(9) - AAA
(8) - 4 or fewer
(7) - 12 or fewer
(6) - 20 or fewer
(5) - 50 or fewer
(4) - 100 or fewer
(3) - 200 or fewer
(2) - 400 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

18. La Campanella [2888 Combo] [LONG]
(11) - 1 or fewer
(10) - 5 or fewer
(9) - 12 or fewer
(8) - 30 or fewer
(7) - 50 or fewer
(6) - 100 or fewer
(5) - 200 or fewer
(4) - 400 or fewer
(3) - 600 or fewer
(2) - 800 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

19. 11ELEVEN [1528 Combo]
(9) - AAA
(8) - 4 or fewer
(7) - 8 or fewer
(6) - 15 or fewer
(5) - 30 or fewer
(4) - 50 or fewer
(3) - 120 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

20. Mathsma Attack [2587 Combo] [LONG]
(9) - 1 or fewer
(8) - 5 or fewer
(7) - 12 or fewer
(6) - 25 or fewer
(5) - 50 or fewer
(4) - 80 or fewer
(3) - 150 or fewer
(2) - 300 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

21. Mephisto Waltz [1842 Combo] [LONG]
(9) - 1 or fewer
(8) - 4 or fewer
(7) - 8 or fewer
(6) - 15 or fewer
(5) - 30 or fewer
(4) - 60 or fewer
(3) - 100 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

22. Necropotence [1695 Combo]
(9) - AAA
(8) - 3 or fewer
(7) - 9 or fewer
(6) - 15 or fewer
(5) - 30 or fewer
(4) - 60 or fewer
(3) - 100 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

23. Nomina Nuda Tenemus [987 Combo]
(9) - AAA
(8) - 3 or fewer
(7) - 7 or fewer
(6) - 12 or fewer
(5) - 25 or fewer
(4) - 50 or fewer
(3) - 100 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

24. Rage Template [1580 Combo]
(9) - 1 or fewer
(8) - 7 or fewer
(7) - 15 or fewer
(6) - 30 or fewer
(5) - 60 or fewer
(4) - 100 or fewer
(3) - 200 or fewer
(2) - 400 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

25. Reality [921 Combo]
(8) - AAA
(7) - 3 or fewer
(6) - 9 or fewer
(5) - 20 or fewer
(4) - 40 or fewer
(3) - 70 or fewer
(2) - 150 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

26. Saddest RMX [919 Combo]
(9) - AAA
(8) - 4 or fewer
(7) - 9 or fewer
(6) - 15 or fewer
(5) - 30 or fewer
(4) - 60 or fewer
(3) - 120 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

27. Sparkle Downer [1360 Combo]
(8) - 1 or fewer
(7) - 4 or fewer
(6) - 8 or fewer
(5) - 15 or fewer
(4) - 30 or fewer
(3) - 60 or fewer
(2) - 120 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

28. Tageri [1945 Combo] [LONG]
(8) - 1 or fewer
(7) - 4 or fewer
(6) - 9 or fewer
(5) - 25 or fewer
(4) - 50 or fewer
(3) - 85 or fewer
(2) - 150 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

29. The Adventures Of Lolo [524 Combo]
(8) - AAA
(7) - 3 or fewer
(6) - 9 or fewer
(5) - 25 or fewer
(4) - 40 or fewer
(3) - 65 or fewer
(2) - 100 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

30. Little God Channel [2814 Combo] [LONG]
(9) - 1 or fewer
(8) - 6 or fewer
(7) - 10 or fewer
(6) - 20 or fewer
(5) - 40 or fewer
(4) - 70 or fewer
(3) - 120 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

31. 12 Bar Bloops [2317 Combo] [LONG]
(9) - 1 or fewer
(8) - 4 or fewer
(7) - 9 or fewer
(6) - 20 or fewer
(5) - 40 or fewer
(4) - 70 or fewer
(3) - 100 or fewer
(2) - 200 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

32. Schmollbluk [1645 Combo]
(10) - 1 or fewer
(9) - 5 or fewer
(8) - 12 or fewer
(7) - 25 or fewer
(6) - 50 or fewer
(5) - 80 or fewer
(4) - 120 or fewer
(3) - 200 or fewer
(2) - 300 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

33. STRAWBERRY SWEETZ [3250 Combo] [LONG]
(9) - 1 or fewer
(8) - 5 or fewer
(7) - 12 or fewer
(6) - 20 or fewer
(5) - 40 or fewer
(4) - 75 or fewer
(3) - 150 or fewer
(2) - 300 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

34. Winter Wind Etude [2407 Combo] [LONG]
(12) - 1 or fewer
(11) - 4 or fewer
(10) - 9 or fewer
(9) - 20 or fewer
(8) - 45 or fewer
(7) - 70 or fewer
(6) - 120 or fewer
(5) - 200 or fewer
(4) - 400 or fewer
(3) - 600 or fewer
(2) - 800 or fewer
(1) - pass the song

[hi19hi19]

Even the un-appeasable stavie agrees. I'd consider that a total success, wow!

Nice work.

[emulord]

SAFE!

[WTF WRECKED]

The FGO list has now been added to 3rd post! (: