12-13-2010, 08:05 AM | #421 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
There are many forms of attraction -- heterosexuality, homosexuality, pedophilia, and hell, even zoophilia -- but some are more condemned than others because they are less frequent (or they simply step on more toes, morally speaking).
We see things as "right" when they help society in some way -- some form of providing value to others. "Wrong" is usually seen as self-serving, particularly at the expense of others. With respect to this topic, it all comes down to consent, at some level. One of the main reasons we condemn pedophilia so heavily is because a small child is still developing -- intellectually and physically. We see it as horribly wicked when some dude leverages his desires against someone who is simply too young to know any better or is too young to have any control over consent. Throw in physical complications and it becomes a concept that disgusts just about everyone. Therefore, we choose not to allow it because it infringes on what we consider basic human rights in a profound way. But homosexuality? That, by no means, falls into the same category. No human rights are violated. What holds it back is societal stigma and ignorance. Hopefully time will start to chew through those a bit as the bigots die out and society becomes a bit more intelligent. |
12-13-2010, 11:44 AM | #422 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
Pay attention to which subforum you're posting in.
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12-17-2010, 01:49 PM | #423 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
I don't believe there's anything wrong with homosexuality as, at the end of the day, it isn't really a matter of choice - nobody can help who they have feelings for. I guess some people who disagree with homosexuality are those that are either brought up on the concept of it just being wrong (due to family prejudices or religion - I won't go into religion though other than that brief reference), end of story, or they may possibly be in the closet themselves and trying to disguise themselves as heterosexual out of fear for how their friends or family may react (although, if that applies to people here - or anywhere, in fact - I hope they end up gaining the courage to eventually say how they feel).
It could be peer pressure too, really - if a group of people are going around "gay bashing", and to not be in the bad books of such a group, other people, not normally associated with that sort of thing, may join in to avoid such abuse themselves. But at the end of the day, those who are homosexual, and are open about their sexuality in discussions and whatnot, should easily keep in mind that; "those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind." |
12-21-2010, 11:32 AM | #424 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
Yeah, your opinion leads me to believe you uncomfortable around gays but you don't think anything is actually wrong with it. Perhaps you should try to understand just because you're repulsed by something, doesn't mean you have to dislike or hate the people who partake in that. It's totally ok to be repulsed by two guys having sex, but it's quite easy to hate on those people for no real good reason especially when a lot of people already are.
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12-25-2010, 12:37 PM | #425 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
I'm always ensnared by threads like this. The temptation to dismiss everyone outright and say "LOL, CRITICAL THINKING" is huge, but even if I do that there are still thousands (if not millions) of people who would earnestly believe the more shortsighted arguments here.
It's interesting, psychologically at least, to think about why people think these things. I think a lot of men don't like homosexuality because they perceive themselves as being good at being strong and therefore good at being a man. It's a hierarchy they've used for their self-esteem. And when they see a gay person, it's not "oh my god he will get the gay on me", it's "oh **** that guy is saying what I'm good at doesn't matter." So in a sense, a homophobe sees gay people sort of like how DDR players see PIU players. |
12-27-2010, 01:52 PM | #426 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
It's not wrong to be gay. Here's why.
1. It's an attribute and not a choice; morality/immorality requires choice (or GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD, but... LOL) 2. Population growth concerns neglect that the distribution of this attribute in relation to heterosexuality makes it completely negligable; homosexuals consistently comprise ~10% of the population. No, accepting homosexuality doesn't encourage more people to become homosexual, that would be like saying accepting blue eyes causes more people to have them. 3. Conduct is overwhelmingly volitional (not feelings, but conduct; ie, "consenting adults") 4. Aforementioned God does not exist. Suck my dick. 5. Even if he did, homophobia isn't really justified by any sane biblical interpretation (lol borderline oxymoron) That being said, I harbor a certain enmity/envy of gay people because they enjoy substantial social acceptance and legal protection that doesn't extend to TG people, and are often transphobic or unwilling to recognize the commonality between the struggles and persecution of the two groups. There are legitimate gay characters in television, cinema, and literature, who have complexity and depth and can even function as role models. TG people are a punchline used in bad jokes. If a TG person appears in media, it's "look, tranny! olololol". To which I respond "where's the joke?" "What do you mean?" I'm told "that is the joke!" Minor rant. Sorry. |
12-27-2010, 11:25 PM | #427 | |||||
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
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Despite all this, I'm honestly not sure exactly where I stand on the homosexuality issue. On the one hand, there's certainly something about it that isn't quite "right", but on the other hand I don't think that it's really "wrong". |
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12-27-2010, 11:37 PM | #428 | ||||
Little Chief Hare
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
If you take that position then any discussion of morality at all becomes senseless.
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You win the coveted KilroyZTC™ Most Meaningless Sentence of the Day Award |
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12-28-2010, 12:06 AM | #429 | |||||||
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
Holy cow, I was not prepared for this degree of ignorance.
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Secondly, no, that is not nearly enough data. To draw any reasonable conclusion, we would need to have data spanning a much larger time period, and many different cultures (where homosexuality is perceived differently). The view of homosexuality in America is dramatically different today than it was even 10 years ago. And 50 years ago. And 100 Years ago. Etc. Quote:
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And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 022: And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 023: And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 024: And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 025: And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. Straight out of the Bible. Okay, so this isn't entirely clear about what exactly happened, but it's still nowhere near any of the bull**** you just said. So let's assume this means that Ham raped his father. Then Noah cursed him. Sounds a lot like a condemnation of homosexuality to me. Quote:
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12-28-2010, 01:07 AM | #430 | ||||||
Little Chief Hare
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
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2. General awareness. Believe it or not, using your eyes to observe the world you live in can help you make reasonable assessments on occasion. 3. "We have no idea". BS. If we had no data we would have no idea. The fact that the data defines a floor rather than a ceiling is pretty much irrelevent, unless you think 2/3rds of the homosexual population are in the closet or something it would be kind of hard for any variance to have an impact on the conclusion. Quote:
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19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. 19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: 19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. 19:37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. 19:38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. Quote:
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Most passages condemning homosexuality are Old Testament, the rest are minor proclamations of (relatively) minor Christian authorities. Last edited by Kilroy_x; 12-28-2010 at 01:12 AM.. |
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12-28-2010, 01:57 AM | #431 | ||||
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
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2. Copout. 3. I think that a very large proportion of homosexuals, possibly even a majority, are indeed in the closet. There are tons of gays who are afraid to come out because of the perceptions of homosexuality. It's safe to assume that the percentage was even higher the further back you go, considering the relative tolerance of the day. So yes, this could very well affect the conclusion a lot, and we honestly have no way of knowing how much. Quote:
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Although I still don't see what this particular passage has to do with the credibility of the Bible on the whole. It isn't condoning what happened, just recording it. Quote:
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12-28-2010, 03:35 AM | #432 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
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12-28-2010, 08:20 AM | #433 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
All Bibles are Bible Fail
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12-28-2010, 09:55 AM | #434 | |||||
Little Chief Hare
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
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You're arguing that homosexuals aren't a relatively small minority. If you somehow polled the entire planet, do you think you would get agreement or disagreement on this assesment? Quote:
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A: "The data says X, therefore X" B: "If the data is true, then X, based on an interpretive framework which includes premises Q, R, P" Incomplete means very little. It means the data defines a floor, so instead of 10%, we read it 10%< . Not a huge difference, and again, unless it's greater than 10% by a factor of 3 or more, it's not really substantive for purposes of this discussion. Quote:
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In that context, you have to understand that Homosexuality is something very different then from what it is now; it is a part of Pagan culture, of a larger context of degeneracy. The essential point of the passage is that a group of people were given the word of God and opted to neglect it, and to persist in Pagan practices which led them away from the word of God. Homosexuality is referenced because it was a Pagan practice. I would assume that the ancient Pagan practice of homosexuality is also quite different from the practice of Homosexuality today, not least because it isn't associated with the same spiritual context. |
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12-28-2010, 10:24 AM | #435 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
I'm not really going to full out because I think I've said everything there is to say throughout this thread, but:
1) You think there's something "just not quite right" about it. Perhaps you just think it's repulsive and you really don't want to picture two dudes going at it? There's nothing logically "wrong" about same sex relationships. 2) If anybody is to pull the God card and uses that as an excuse to hate on homosexuals, perhaps you should look at the Bible a little closer. If you're a good Christian you won't judge homosexuals for what they do. Jesus wouldn't call them names and talk crap about them. Also the same guy who called homosexuality an abomination was the same guy who said eating shellfish was an abomination. |
12-28-2010, 02:12 PM | #436 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
The bible says a lot of things. It doesn't mean being gay is wrong. If being gay is wrong because of the bible saying it's an abomination for a man to sleep with men, then it's also wrong to eat shellfish or pork, slavery is perfectly okay, you need to stay away from women during their periods and burn everything they touch, etc...
It's very selective to pick that passage out of the bible, and not follow the rest of it or take it as seriously.
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12-28-2010, 02:22 PM | #437 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
I'm tired of people using the bible as a damn reference. Just because the bible says it's wrong to be gay doesn't entirely mean the bible is always right. Being gay is a choice and there isn't anything wrong with it. If another person likes the same sex of that person, it's whatever. They do what they want them to do. Honestly, gay people have more respect and heart then straight people. Gays in relationships manage to last longer because they don't have to worry about cheating. Now if you are straight, you will most likely cheat. So if you think being gay is wrong...you are ****ed up in the head. Believe the bible all you want, but that doesn't always tell the truth. The truth lies within yourself. I support anyone who is gay ^__^
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12-28-2010, 05:07 PM | #438 | |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
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but if youre serious... ya you got it champ, the ancient text's meaning of an "abomination" is completely different from that of modern day. in fact, any bible scholar will tell you that the term was used to mean "something frowned upon, but accepted". eating shrimp was also called an abomination, and people were to be stoned to death for mixing fabrics etc.. to address the "u cant prove being gays not a choice" contention, i'll just keep it simple. it isnt a choice, the gene has been found; it is a matter of fact now. do a little research (gOOgle) and youll find out for yourself. you can buy into the (certain parts that work for you) bible literalist mumbo jumbo if you want, but anyone out there with a working brain will laugh at how utterly ignorant you are |
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12-28-2010, 05:21 PM | #439 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
Rofl, so I've only read a little bit of this. I'll throw some change in here.
The bible is a joke and should not be considered into any form of thinking [opinion]. Especially since there are probably billions of different interpretations of the bible, and we will never know which is considered the most "correct". Being gay is not wrong. Like WAC said, there's literally a gay gene. I know countless gay people and they're not bad people, they lead normal lives just like you and me, they just have sex with someone of the same sex. Oh well, get over it.
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12-29-2010, 08:18 PM | #440 |
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Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
And so he says:
We can all have opinions, back and forth about wrong and not wrong. Kilroy says God doesn't exist, and so it isn't wrong. What does that have to do with anything? That is looking skin deep at the problem. Yes, I believe in God; yes, I believe being gay to be wrong. Let's throw that out for now, and just pretend that God doesn't exist, and look at the issue again. If there is no God, then you believe in evolution. People talk about a gay gene, when really it is just some alterations in genetic makeup. If it was a gene, it would be bred out, because NO ONE would be passing it on. That leaves it being and error/mutation/disorder. It is obviously not beneficial, because it is the type of thing that if it was a gene, natural selection would always breed OUT of the human race. Only human "intelligence"(and I use this term loosely) would have caused it not be bred out, if it was a gene. This is the same reason why Super-mini-teacup Dogs are still around. Humans find them cute, even when those breeds are a disorder, even a de-evolution(if you believe that type of thing). It is why many of the types are weak, sterile, etc. Nature is TRYING to get rid of them. Humans deliberately breed that into the dogs, even though Nature would have wiped the things out. They are not better in any natural way, but they pander to the whims of human nature. Those dogs need nearly everything done for them, and would die because they are 100% dependent. So really people, STOP using God as your right or wrong, because if you believe in the Bible, then you believe being gay is wrong, as it is very explicit about "men who lie with men" being detestable. We can say God this, or No God that, but how about just looking at the topic of Gay being right or wrong in your Godless world, because we all know where the issue would stand in a world WITH God. Last edited by Cenright; 12-29-2010 at 08:25 PM.. |
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