Happy Veterans day

[Nyokou]

Calm the **** down OrganisM.

Just because Bush spews out a bunch of bull**** about "the war on terror" doesn't mean you have to act like a pompous idiot and disrespect the Iraq/Vietnam veterans. And still you claim that what you're saying has nothing to do with those wars when you've clearly suggested it two times.

[OrganisM]

I am calm, and have done my best to explain myself for the benefit of people like you who think everything I say is an attack. I don't know where you're getting any of this from, but I'm not acting high-and-mighty, and I've already stated that I mean no disrespect. I was insinuating that saying the price they pay with their lives is justifiable in the name of "freedom" particularly when I don't see our "freedom" being threatened is very disrespectful to those who put their lives on the line. My point is it doesn't matter what war we speak of, "freedom isn't free" is an insipid and disgusting phrase that is an insult to those who are out there fighting. This was never meant to branch out into the merits or lack thereof in these past few wars the country has fought. The point is that they are entirely irrelevant. I suppose I credit you with too much insight; you never have been known for your level of intellect.

I made a statement about my distaste for a phrase, and you bitch and moan. And then somehow I'm not calm and it's a big deal. And it's my fault even though you pressed the issue. All I'm doing is clarifying and you continue to bait me into further argument. If you do not post a response to this, I will not make any further posts in this thread pertaining to the phrase. It depends on whether you want the last word that badly. If you post and further attack me, I'll try and clarify things again. It's your choice.

[Nyokou]

Of course our freedom is being threatened, but you don't understand why. The terrorists who hate our country, or practically anyone who hates our country usually, is because of our freedom. They hate our culture, basically, and this whole "freedom" idea we're into. And yes, I do realize that the War in Iraq was a terrible mistake. Bush couldn't find the real group/organization of people right away that was responsible for the 9/11 attacks so he waged war on Iraq, as I see it, in revenge.

A lot of people who are out there fighting have been raised and taught to believe that America fights for its freedom and it's his/her belief, and it has usually been his/her choice to enlist for the war because of that belief. So how is that disrespectful? The only one being disrespectful is you for challenging that belief.

And of course freedom isn't free. You don't even explain why you think it's wrong, you just say you hate it for no reason. Not everyone has the luck of being born into countries like America, the UK, Canada... Those people are pretty damn lucky. There are people who are born into terrible worlds. A world of underground slave trade. A world of dictatorship. The people who stand up against these terrible things are heroes because they've been deprived of their natural rights to freedom. It's all about luck, or fighting for your freedom.

And that luck never would have been possible had it not been for those before you that stood up and fought for their freedom.

[OrganisM]

AHAHAHAHA

This culture is arrogant and willfully ignorant, and that is why the world hates the US. Have you traveled? I was born in a communist country, and I've been all around the world. Have you? You speak with grandiose terms about freedom, and about how the world is, but perhaps you haven't seen any of it to know a damn thing in what you're talking about.

[Nyokou]

What the hell does traveling have to do with anything?

No, I haven't traveled but I want to, and I know enough to say what I did. I may not have had first-hand experiences, but I'm educated because of what I've been taught in school and from what I know from friends, family members, and people online who have experienced difficulties in other countries.

Oh and I'm sure you're so damn smart too aren't you? 19 years old and traveled all around the world, wow! There you go again being a pompous idiot. I do realize that we can be arrogant and even ignorant at times, but so can other countries. They just don't show it as much as we do.

[OrganisM]

Traveling means you've actually seen something of the world and know something about other cultures firsthand. You can't tell me what people think in Ireland, France, the UK, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, and a number of other countries, can you? Have you gone there and asked them? Searching Wikipedia doesn't mean you have any clue about the world.

Yeah, 19 years old, and traveled all over the world. My first trans-Atlantic flight was at 10 months old, and I've been traveling all my life. It's simple fact, and throwing insults at me won't make you any smarter or any more right.

I speak with insight and experience and understanding as well as intelligence. You speak with an incredible naivete of the world. I actually have seen things, and that is pure truth. You have seen nothing for yourself. Listening to your friends talking about how things are somewhere else is not the same thing as going there and being there.

Like Good Will Hunting: Do you know what the Sistine chapel smells like? I'm sure you could quote me anything you like, but you haven't been anywhere yourself. You can tell me all about the world when you haven't been anywhere. Pfft.

Naive, foolish little girl. I don't pretend to know everything, but I'm sure as hell many leagues ahead of you. Go travel the world, go experience things, and go find out the truth firsthand before you act as arrogant as you have.

And if you know so much about what other countries think, can you tell me what they say in the coffee shops near the Opera Garnier in Paris? Can you tell me what they think in Venice? Can you tell me what it's like to experience Turkish hospitality? Can you tell me anything about the Bulgarian mafia? Looks like you can't. Think before you speak, and go live your life instead of being so pretentious.

[Rubin0]

Without getting involved in your argument, guys, I just want to say that my friend left last week for Afghanistan. I asked him numerous times why he was going (besides the fact that the military told him too), and I never got a straight answer from him. I respect his bravery, but I find it blind. He isn't fighting to end terror, or for liberty, or for justice. He is fighting because that is what he is required to do. He is soldier and he does what he is told.

I have gone to conferences, watched documentaries in my Eastern Politics classes, listened to first hand experiences from people who know what is going on overseas. It isn't what the media tells us. It isn't what our government tells us. We are being fed a pack of lies. People are dying everyday. Their cities, towns, and villages are being destroyed. And for what? Oil? Democracy? 9/11? Nobody seems to have one answer. It's a bunch of bull****. And my friend could die for it.


Veteran's have every ounce of my respect, but that does not mean I have to agree with what they have fought for....especially since I don't know what that is.

[OrganisM]

I have a friend who has been serving in Iraq. He had been in college and ended up smoking pot and getting wasted constantly and out of fear for his lack of control, he joined the army and switched to active duty to get some purpose kicked in him. He now regrets his decision and the army owns his ass for another 3 or so years.

It's weird how it's nobody's fault yet it's everybody's fault and we're all complicit in it, and funny how we're fighting for nothing and it's a lost cause, but somehow it's continuing to get supported. If it was wrong, if it was pointless, if it was not justified, why did it happen? Everybody mysteriously laid down and let it happen until the reality of innocent people dying came into view.

I know I come across as callous, uncaring, unreasonable, unkind, and brutally mean. I am one to defend my opinion very strongly, but because my belief is very strong, not because I am blind and see or comprehend no other points of view. It's very easy to lay blame and point fingers, but at one point, to me, justice is more about who is affected than who you can lock up or shoot. Regardless of who is a sinner and who is a saint, I see a lot of innocent people dying, and a lot of people suffering the consequences of harsh actions while we sit idly by and try to justify it by saying "well it's because we have to".

I'm not here to argue for the sake of arguing. It's something that resonates within me very deeply and it hurts very badly to see someone uncomprehendingly justify slaughter and injustice in the name of freedom. I'm no less of a patriot. I consider myself more a patriot than those who talk of freedom. I am a patriot because I am not satisfied with the status quo. I am a patriot because I believe the US can be better. I am a patriot because I want to make a change in this country. Make no mistake - I love my adopted country, and that is why I concentrate so heavily on its faults. It's like a beautiful painting, where you obsess over every brushstroke because anything less wouldn't be doing it justice.

Just my two cents for those who didn't understand me clearly thus far.

[Necros140606]

also, out of all the holidays, i find the worshipping of war pretty disgusting. it is indirect, since you're celebrating veterans, but every time you praise your military forces, every time they are sent to show up in meetings and happenings that don't have ANYTHING to do with the war, like the olympic games.... i can't accept it. this is, as organism said, just a very low propaganda. and unfortunately, it works. i am from another country, and even if less strong, there still is a military sense here in italy. i don't agree with it at all, like i don't agree with people complaining as militaries die in action. they enlisted, it's a part of this "job". nobody says anything when a worker in a factory dies, especially if the worker is of another race.

sorry nyokou but your arguments dont make sense. i find horrific to even consider that freedom creates terrorism, and that's what you said. terrorism is the result of dictatorship, fear and hatred, and this comes from both part, not only from the terrorist's part. i can assure you, terrorism doesn't spread out when there is freedom. we had terrorism in italy in the 70s, the so called red brigades. they fought against a repressive and rotten state. although they accomplished nothing and did many horrible things, they were born as a result of the terrible government of the time. with a wiser and more open government, nothing would have happened. think twice before you say something so big.

[Nyokou]

Why is it so hard to understand that freedom creates terrorism?

There will always be extremists out there who disagree with the United States' culture and way of life who want to make us suffer because they're mentally incompetent of accepting it. That's the way they were brought up. It's exactly the same thing as racists here in America who hate Obama. It's because that's how they were brought up, but the difference is that Middle Eastern countries are governed by those kind of the people - the people that were raised Muslim and in a society where men are more important than women, etc.

I never said I supported the war on "terrorism", in fact I completely disagree with it and I know that a lot of men are getting sent there that don't want to. The thing is, there are people who do because of what they believe about our "freedom", like my cousin's husband. He feels it's his duty. And the phrase "freedom isn't free" MAY be propaganda, but it's NOT entirely false; it has SOME truth to it.

I also still don't understand what traveling has anything to do with this.

The only reason I mentioned other countries several posts back is because people are lucky to be born where they are sometimes - but it all depends on what they do with their life. There are still quite a few countries out there that don't offer as much freedom to individuals as the super powers of the world do. That doesn't mean to say that ALL of the super powers do this for their people, but most do.

In fact, I may not have been born into a communist country, but I was born into a terrible country (in my opinion) that wouldn't have given me a chance because I wasn't born into a rich family. A very poor family as a matter of fact.

I just feel blessed to live in America.

[Necros140606]

Originally Posted by Nyokou

Why is it so hard to understand that freedom creates terrorism?

There will always be extremists out there who disagree with the United States' culture and way of life who want to make us suffer because they're mentally incompetent of accepting it. That's the way they were brought up. It's exactly the same thing as racists here in America who hate Obama. It's because that's how they were brought up, but the difference is that Middle Eastern countries are governed by those kind of the people - the people that were raised Muslim and in a society where men are more important than women, etc.

actually the terrorism we're experiencing today have been built up on muslim people's religious beliefs, and those who commit suicide killing other people are children taken away from their parents while still being babies, so that all they know is the crap they tell them. and the crap is founded on something as brainwashing and alienating as religion, and we all know the results. when there is freedom, people are generally more informed about the world, the cultural level raises, the society develops, the crime rate drops. it's a matter of fact and i have no idea from what kind of terrible experience you got this way of seeing it.

Originally Posted by Nyokou

I never said I supported the war on "terrorism", in fact I completely disagree with it and I know that a lot of men are getting sent there that don't want to. The thing is, there are people who do because of what they believe about our "freedom", like my cousin's husband. He feels it's his duty. And the phrase "freedom isn't free" MAY be propaganda, but it's NOT entirely false; it has SOME truth to it.

I also still don't understand what traveling has anything to do with this.

first, i agree. propaganda has to be at least half true to be effective, but it's still propaganda. it's made for replacing your free thinking. it's made for keeping people from questioning some things the system is based on. "why on earth do we celebrate the veterans? what's the true reason?" - i don't think most people do this before accepting an idea, expecially when it's a matter of tradition it seems you cannot question anything at all. it's just retarded.

second, traveling gives you some first-hand knowledge. as organism said, it's a bit risky to solely rely on media's information and especially on people's gossiping. in this world you can only trust your esyes, and assumptions made starting from rumors and chatting are not to be accepted.

Originally Posted by Nyokou

I just feel blessed to live in America

maybe you do, but others not. try to open your eyes a bit and see the globality of the situation.

[Nyokou]

Both of you just completely complicated the entire situation.

Whatever.