Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[xinpig]

i thought it was dec. 4

[Squeek]

^ - The perfect example of someone who doesn't read past the first post before replying.

[ToshX]

Originally Posted by Squeek

That takes all the fun out of the game.

Well, I enjoy playing this way significantly more.

[plasmix]

Say what you will about wavedashing or playing with items, but snaking in MK is not cheating nor exploiting. Absolutely not. It is simply the best way to drive. If you think miniboosting should be restricted to turns, that is a really lame way of thinking. (A good analogy eludes me here) Miniboosting is a basic technique, and as a gamer you are entitled to use it to your advantage.

And previous MK games allowed snaking. Why is the DS version getting all the heat?

[zidart]

Originally Posted by plasmix

Say what you will about wavedashing or playing with items, but snaking in MK is not cheating nor exploiting. Absolutely not. It is simply the best way to drive. If you think miniboosting should be restricted to turns, that is a really lame way of thinking. (A good analogy eludes me here) Miniboosting is a basic technique, and as a gamer you are entitled to use it to your advantage.

And previous MK games allowed snaking. Why is the DS version getting all the heat?

because MK DS is online and i think the only mario kart that you can snake is this one, maybe i'm wrong because i don't snake, i can beat my oponents without things that were not suposed to be on the game.

as what shamoo said of people getting owned, well see that. i am not the best player, i am just above average, however there's always a way to defeat a glitch and if i was able to do it in melee i think i can do it in brawl

[Chromer]

So far, this game is shaping up to be what I want: a game where you can't strip down for your own insecurities. Even if you do, many features prevent you from stripping it even further (e.g. Samus Finale transformation into Zero Suit etc.)

[Shamo0]

Originally Posted by plasmix

Say what you will about wavedashing or playing with items, but snaking in MK is not cheating nor exploiting. Absolutely not. It is simply the best way to drive. If you think miniboosting should be restricted to turns, that is a really lame way of thinking. (A good analogy eludes me here) Miniboosting is a basic technique, and as a gamer you are entitled to use it to your advantage.

And previous MK games allowed snaking. Why is the DS version getting all the heat?

The only people who complain about snakers are the people not doing it-- the losers. They don't want to learn how to be good at nonstop boosting so they call it cheap and other lame stuff. It's so retarded when people like that complain over something that takes a little practice.

Brawl online is srsly going to be a kick in the face to some people. It's then that they will realize, "wow, I'm not dedicated at all" but majority will just be like "fking hxxor, lame cheat, omg spwn kill wtf". In mariokart all you do is race. In Brawl you're actually pummeling them lol. I think they'd feel it more.

[plasmix]

Originally Posted by zidart

because MK DS is online and i think the only mario kart that you can snake is this one, maybe i'm wrong because i don't snake, i can beat my oponents without things that were not suposed to be on the game.

Snaking was intentionally programmed into the game. Since MK 64.

[zidart]

Originally Posted by Shamo0

The only people who complain about snakers are the people not doing it-- the losers. They don't want to learn how to be good at nonstop boosting so they call it cheap and other lame stuff. It's so retarded when people like that complain over something that takes a little practice.

Brawl online is srsly going to be a kick in the face to some people. It's then that they will realize, "wow, I'm not dedicated at all" but majority will just be like "fking hxxor, lame cheat, omg spwn kill wtf". In mariokart all you do is race. In Brawl you're actually pummeling them lol. I think they'd feel it more.

if you think people who don't snake are losers, then you never really knew the whole purpose of mario kart, sure i can snake (on DS only) however i never use it, and yes i call it a cheap trick, if you can't win without it then you are no mario kart player at all.

same with wavedash, never ever in my life i used wavedash, yet i can own 3 to 1 lvl 9 CPS (but everyone can do this anyway so it's not a big deal) if melee wasn't a kick in my face i think brawl is not gonna be either, i can be dedicated to a game without using a glitch to my advantage (yes you can't deny is a glitch).

however glitch or no glitch is something in the game, and the only way you cheat on a game is with codes. however you will never (i say it a 100 times) see me doing wavedash

[plasmix]

How do you plan on winning competetive MK races without extensive boosting? With items?

And it doesn't quite make sense to compare snaking to wavedashing. Snaking is a fully acknowledged driving technique, whereas wavedashing is completely unconventional and may or may not be glitching.

[zidart]

Originally Posted by plasmix

How do you plan on winning competetive MK races without extensive boosting? With items?

And it doesn't quite make sense to compare snaking to wavedashing. Snaking is a fully acknowledged driving technique, whereas wavedashing is completely unconventional and may or may not be glitching.

yes with items, i been doing that since the first mario kart, i been doing it on-line and i had no problem with snakers this way, however yes is not a glitch but is a cheap trick if it's the only thing you use for winning. but however i'm very sure you are not that kind of people who ONLY use snaking to win

i prefer using the boost when i need it (on curves), and i like karts iwth high item lvls, so that even if i am in second place i still can get a blue shell.

[plasmix]

Originally Posted by zidart

i like karts iwth high item lvls, so that even if i am in second place i still can get a blue shell.

Wouldn't that qualify as a cheap trick by your set of standards? You seem to rely heavily on blue shells, just as a snaker would rely on snaking.

Originally Posted by zidart

then you never really knew the whole purpose of mario kart,

Now would that be skillful driving that doesn't involve heavy miniboosting, or slewing items at your enemies?

[zidart]

Originally Posted by plasmix

Wouldn't that qualify as a cheap trick by your set of standards? You seem to rely heavily on blue shells, just as a snaker would rely on snaking.


Now would that be skillful driving that doesn't involve heavy miniboosting, or slewing items at your enemies?

as a matter of fact no, i just made an example, there's tons of other items, and i don't just use them randomly is use them when my strategy needs them. again i rely on both my driving skills and items, and again i don't need snaking, i didn't need it in mission mode or grandprix mode or whatever, i don't need it in online mode. but i don't care if anybody else use it, it is a cheap trick if you can't win without it that's what i mean.

that would be skillfull driving, with correct use of items, you need both to win. am i wrong?

well to finish this thing because is out of topic, jsut because some people don't snake doesn't mean that we am a loser or inferior to any snaker, sure it takes time to learn it and all that. but everyone has their own kind of way.

[plasmix]

Originally Posted by zidart

most of your post

Agree but

Originally Posted by zidart

n online mode. but i don't care if anybody else use it, it is a cheap trick if you can't win without it that's what i mean.

Invalid point. Is using items a cheap trick if you can't win without them?

and done for the night.

[zidart]

Originally Posted by plasmix

Agree but


Invalid point. Is using items a cheap trick if you can't win without them?

and done for the night.

you got me, however anyone can use items so it would be a great disadvantage without them (to not get out of topic in both brawl and mario kart)

[tsugomaru]

I glanced at some posts.

Dedication doesn't mean you know how to wavedash.

That's all I have to say.

~Tsugomaru

[Shamo0]

Of course it doesn't. It just means you would take the time to learn it if you wanted to.

Dedication - a devoting or setting aside for a particular purpose - webster

Your particular purpose is learning how to Wavedash.


Anyone can use items in Mariokart. Anyone can take the time to practice snaking. It's a matter of choice. It's not lame or cheating =/ It's simply becoming better then other people by practicing something that other people don't want to practice.

Wavedashing is an exploit. A glitch whatever you want to call it. But it's still deemed fair play by the active Smash community.

[zidart]

well i am dedicated to be better than someone that use wavedash.
and i am practicing how to win without using heavy miniboost,
so far i've done both.

but yeah i can snake however i saw it is not my style of playing so i will never use it again

[Relambrien]

By the way, regardless of whether or not these exploits (wavedashing, snaking, etc.) are necessarily fair, you have to admit it certainly makes for more entertaining games. If all parties involved can use the techniques, then the game becomes that much more exciting. Of course, if not all parties involved can use the techniques, then it becomes more of a challenge to those who can't. And isn't challenging yourself and having fun the whole point of video games?

There are people who have much more fun playing with [insert debated game facet here (e.g. wavedashing, items, snaking, etc.)]. Just because something is an exploit or abuses game mechanics doesn't necessarily mean it takes all the fun out of the game. You could argue that it isn't fun to lose to someone just because they can do something you can't (or choose not to), but everyone has the ability to learn and to get better at the game. This doesn't just apply to glitches, as stuff like chain-throwing in SSBM is something not everyone can do, but that everyone can learn.

Personally, my goal in any game is to be as good at it as I possibly can. Why? Because it's more fun for me the better I am. You have to admit that these debated techniques do require skill to use, so for the purpose of being better and thus having more fun, I will learn them. Mastering a new technique or style is something I greatly enjoy.

I believe this philosophy holds true to most people: you have more fun in a game the better you are at it. People will try to improve themselves so that they can enjoy the game more. Because of this, I don't see a problem with wavedashing. Learning it and learning how to use it (which is another thing entirely) will make you better at the game, as it adds another strategy you can use and allows you to vary your style further. Matches against others who can wavedash become that much more entertaining. Thus, you can have more fun.

And since it's something anyone can learn, it's not reserved to an elite group of people.

If you don't want to learn to wavedash, I'm going to assume you're saying "I don't want to be better at this game." Granted, wavedashing doesn't instantly make you awesome, but it does increase your skill level if you can use it properly. I will never understand why some people don't want to improve themselves.

It's not like wavedashing is some painfully-easy but broken tactic that ensures a win if you can just hit a button. It's just another technique that adds further depth, strategy, and variety to your game, and is reasonably difficult to pull off for the rewards it gives. It may be an exploit, but it isn't an exploit that completely ruins the validity of games or player skill. The person with the most skill will win most of the time, and that's the goal.

Now if all you had to do to win was be the best wavedasher, it would be a problem, since the necessity of skill in other areas would be nullified. But that isn't the case. Wavedashing can actually increase the skill necessary to win between two wavedashers, in that mindgames become that much more important and dealing with wavedash-based techniques (waveshine, etc.) is something you'll have to do. In this way, it's good for the game.

What I'm about to say may seem off-topic, but if you'll bear with me you'll see how it relates to SSB.

I play an online game called Guild Wars, and my guild is ranked 27th out of thousands of guilds in the game, so I have a respectable amount of credibility when referring to the game. An ongoing problem has been "imba builds," which are basically team or character setups that provide an extreme advantage to the team using them with a ridiculously low amount of required skill to use. Generally, these are "spike" builds: highly defensive setups with multiple characters synchronizing high-damage skills on one target in order to kill it before the opposing team can react. There was recently one such build, called "rit spike" that was extremely bad for the game. For almost no Energy (mana, MP, whatever you want to call it) investment, you could use a skill that dealt 120 damage, cast quickly, and recharged quickly. With all eight members of the team using these three skills along with several "fire-and-forget" highly-defensive skills, a member of the opposing team could be killed once every five seconds very consistently (most people have about 600 Health, and with this spike, over 900 damage was dealt simultaneously). Using voice chat to synchronize the spike eliminated almost all skill required to use it, since you could be almost anywhere in relation to your teammates and still hit the target.

This was bad for the game because it was extremely powerful for almost no skill investment. The offending abilities were then changed to greatly decrease their power.

Wavedashing, however (and this is where I tie in to Guild Wars), is not bad for the game. It requires a decent amount of skill to use, and provides decent rewards. It's a versatile technique, so wavedashing doesn't force you to play in only one way, as the Guild Wars "rit spike" did (if you didn't synchronize a spike, it would be impossible to kill anything). It adds another layer of depth and strategy.

The only reason -not- to use it would be "It's an exploit, so it's morally wrong." Well in Guild Wars, teams abuse the fact that you cannot walk through opposing players in order to prevent movement or to "bodyblock" someone into an area. This was seen by the developers as an excellent usage of game mechanics, and requires a good amount of skill for a good reward, so the game's player-versus-player tutorial was amended to include instructions on using it. I consider wavedashing similar. It is not an insanely powerful technique, and its difficulty-to-reward ratio is nearly perfect. Regardless of whether or not it was an intended use of game mechanics, it certainly doesn't make it so that winning requires less skill. The -only- thing even questionable about it is the fact that it's a use of game mechanics not foreseen by the developers.

If you don't want to use it, it's fine. But it isn't cheap, it isn't "imbalanced," (to use a Guild Wars term), and it doesn't ensure a win. It adds more depth and strategy to the game, and provides an acceptable reward for the amount of skill required to use it, without increasing the chance that skill would be less of a factor in determining the outcome of a game.

[masterhickle]

Originally Posted by Squeek

From what I hear, exploits in games go unpunished nowadays in games like Mario Kart DS, where people use snaking to win races. Nobody likes to play against random people anymore because of the jerks who need exploits rather than skill to win races.

Wait, snaking in Mario Kart DS is an exploit? How the hell? It's rapid drift boosting.

I'll read everything past that later, I got a hockey game.

Peace