A new beginning for our SM community.

[lukestepwalker]

are you trying to make Stepmania Like FFr or something?

[Shikari]

Originally Posted by lukestepwalker

are you trying to make Stepmania Like FFr or something?

Nope. Trying to implement features, like scores database and TP system, to give players some motivation and competition.

[Oni-Paranoia]

@Reincarnate - In earlier posts, I mentioned it would be best to use an impossible song as the hardest song in the system. What we thought was impossible years ago has become easy in some cases. So at least for now, I don't see why a couple of extremely (impossible) difficult songs go at the top.

At least this way if we do have to add numbers, it wouldn't be anytime soon (hopefully).

New Idea (criticize please)

Similar to the groove radar, what if we implemented a small graph. This graph would look similar to the results screen of IIDX. Pretty much, the graph would be....

|
|
|
| <- NPS
|
|
|__________________
Song Length

This way you can see the MAX. NPS in the song. You can see how long the song is. I guess rather than just a number representation, we could definitely and easily use a small visual representation. You would be able to identify streams, bursts etc... by the increase in spikes. on the graph. Just a thought, wouldn't be difficult to implement.

[TC_Halogen]

I don't know how something like this would be implemented -- it seems really complicated. However, it's definitely something that is worth thinking about. It eliminates the need for an arbitrary rating system and gives a clear visual of when a section gets harder. However, for songs that are technically difficult and rely on difficult sections without increasing NPS very much (see a song with stream and then using that same 16th stream as jacks, or something), it doesn't prove to be entirely accurate.

[Oni-Paranoia]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

I don't know how something like this would be implemented -- it seems really complicated. However, it's definitely something that is worth thinking about. It eliminates the need for an arbitrary rating system and gives a clear visual of when a section gets harder. However, for songs that are technically difficult and rely on difficult sections without increasing NPS very much (see a song with stream and then using that same 16th stream as jacks, or something), it doesn't prove to be entirely accurate.

Of course there is going to be flaws and we can either...
- Deal with the flaws
- Fix the flaws
I figure we'd be able to label maybe a spot that has jacks above the heightened section. Maybe basing a system off the .sm file would be best where as 0001 0001 0001 represents a jack.

P.s. Don't get me started with mini jacks like Guillame tell or whatever. It's still a thought, mwuahaha.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by Oni-Paranoia

@Reincarnate - In earlier posts, I mentioned it would be best to use an impossible song as the hardest song in the system. What we thought was impossible years ago has become easy in some cases. So at least for now, I don't see why a couple of extremely (impossible) difficult songs go at the top.

At least this way if we do have to add numbers, it wouldn't be anytime soon (hopefully).

New Idea (criticize please)

Similar to the groove radar, what if we implemented a small graph. This graph would look similar to the results screen of IIDX. Pretty much, the graph would be....

|
|
|
| <- NPS
|
|
|__________________
Song Length

This way you can see the MAX. NPS in the song. You can see how long the song is. I guess rather than just a number representation, we could definitely and easily use a small visual representation. You would be able to identify streams, bursts etc... by the increase in spikes. on the graph. Just a thought, wouldn't be difficult to implement.

It's OK to use tough songs for the top, but the problem is that if you try to scale everything by a function of skill and performance, you may wind up with, say, every realistically-playable song only making it up to Difficulty 34 or something and then Chik Habit next in line all the way up at Difficulty 100 because it's just that much harder to do well on compared to everything else.

I think it's OK to include really tough songs as long as they aren't several standard deviations away in terms of difficulty, because then they force you to operate the rest of the game within really squished frames. Personally I think 100 should represent the hardest passable song. If a song is so hard that it can't be passed, it's hard to give it a difficulty on incomplete information which may be subject to huge variance swings.

And yeah you could pretty much plot # of steps over time and then assess local NPS figures as a sweeping X-second framework (so you'll be able to see, for instance, huge spikes if you've got an otherwise slow song but a few spots where you have high-NPS/high-BPM bursts/jacks/whatever). Would be worth implementing, assuming it could be done cleanly.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

I think it's OK to include really tough songs as long as they aren't several standard deviations away in terms of difficulty, because then they force you to operate the rest of the game within really squished frames. Personally I think 100 should represent the hardest passable song. If a song is so hard that it can't be passed, it's hard to give it a difficulty on incomplete information which may be subject to huge variance swings.

And yeah you could pretty much plot # of steps over time and then assess local NPS figures as a sweeping X-second framework (so you'll be able to see, for instance, huge spikes if you've got an otherwise slow song but a few spots where you have high-NPS/high-BPM bursts/jacks/whatever). Would be worth implementing, assuming it could be done cleanly.

While I agree with the first note, what happens when someone breaks the boundaries of something that is passable (@ 100 being hardest passable)? The rating system would end up having to be contoured to accommodate for constantly improving players. I think Oni is onto something with using a graph for a clean representation, because you could use an NPS value with a graphic indicator to let you know that there is in fact some sort of difficulty spike within the song, but the rest of the song is a bit more tame.

As far as making a clean graph, a more accurate (but possibly much more intensive) graph would be to note the difference in time between taps. While this may sound very similar to NPS, it negates the issue of a song forming an upward "gradient" due to a break before a large spike in difficulty.

This doesn't nullify the issue with jacks forming poor representations of values, but it assures that other values are otherwise accurate.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

While I agree with the first note, what happens when someone breaks the boundaries of something that is passable (@ 100 being hardest passable)? The rating system would end up having to be contoured to accommodate for constantly improving players. I think Oni is onto something with using a graph for a clean representation, because you could use an NPS value with a graphic indicator to let you know that there is in fact some sort of difficulty spike within the song, but the rest of the song is a bit more tame.

As far as making a clean graph, a more accurate (but possibly much more intensive) graph would be to note the difference in time between taps. While this may sound very similar to NPS, it negates the issue of a song forming an upward "gradient" due to a break before a large spike in difficulty.

This doesn't nullify the issue with jacks forming poor representations of values, but it assures that other values are otherwise accurate.

If something gets passed, then it gets factored into the difficulty scales. Typically speaking, passes tend to still be shitty scores. So if you take into account who's playing the file (likely a strong player with strong skill ratings) and the fact that they got a crappy score on a previously-unpassed song, the difficulty metric will take care of itself.

Re: NPS: My only qualm with NPS is that it says nothing about the patterns. A 10 NPS jack is much harder than a 10 NPS stream.

[kommisar]

that's when you use your judgment. if a song has a few spikes that make it harder than your average 10 nps, it's probably better to rate it 11. any system will eventually need a subjective opinion

[Reincarnate]

Well technically that's the whole point of a scaled system. It doesn't need anything subjective.

[Gellenduo]

Originally Posted by who_cares973

protip: just because we're on ffr that does not mean im representing ffr and its stepping mindset. as far as i know OD Bemanistyle and QED dont have any techniques that are implemented in stepfiles other than layering which is something that is universal amongst all styles of stepping.

i dont think we have the same idea when someone says stepping classes. also you're jumping the gun by assuming that all that will be taught is the way we step. any good stepartist is versatile and uses various techniques when the chances arise. whether its vocal jumps(mostly done in anime files aka OD) ghost notes and filler notes(QED simfiles) and basic straightforward streams and basic layering schemes(bemanistyle for the mos part)

also im pretty sure it wont be just people that have posted in this thread that will just be hosting classes. if anything there will be several representatives from all the major sites giving tips and general knowledge on stepping basics and techniques. so how about you give this a chance before you go drowning it with criticism

When I say ffr I'm also talking about communities such as kbo/odi/other communities with a lot of the same people and so on.
I must admit that you're kinda right about places like od not having any unique techniques. Although, what I was trying to say was that they try to get around sections that arise a chance for colored notes/jack theory/whatever, according to the communities where these ”unique techniques” are common that is, by other means or just go for a more simplified approach.
Define what a ”good” simfile artist is, because if you look at Midare's or QED's files you'll see that they very seldom and sometimes never use any techniques that emphasizes any certain sound, which style has no use of any of these ffr/odi/kbo-based theories and techniques. ”When the chances arise” is subjective and dependent on your style.
How can you be so sure that there will be represantives? As far as I know there are barely any posts about this anywhere. I'm a regular on Otaku's Dream and there hasn't been any talk about it at all from what I've heard. Besides, it's a very time-consuming and not very attractive task. If you really want to let more communities to know about this idea you shouldn't wait for someone else to spread news about it and do it yourself.
Regarding the criticism comment: I don't wanna start a fight, but I think that it's good to debate about it instead of going with the ”shoot first, think later” tactic.

Originally Posted by Shikari

Gellenduo, I said I want to bring the FFR's idea back to the life, but I didn't mention that would be ONLY for keyboard players and stepartists, and people from FFR. Since all this is about an unificated community, of course I'll ask people from OD, Bemanistyle and KBO some help. I consider them separated "categories" because of a multitude of reason: Stepping style, required skills to play, number of players, since we have people who play pad, but not KB; people who play KB, but not pad; people who play OD's files, but aren't aware of keyboard challenging files and pad files, aside of DDR games; people who play solo, and don't play singles anymore. See? They're sorta separated, even being part of the same game. But, like Carlos said, we don't want to tell people what's right and what's wrong about stepping files, we want to give to people interested in making charts hints and techniques to actually create these files. It's like teaching art for a kid: You can teach Surrealism techniques, Cubism techniques, Impressionism techniques, and so on, but it's up to THIS KID what he/she will use and what style he/she will adopt as his/her own, do you understand? And having more stepartists will be interesting for stepmaking communities, because it'll mean more files, more packs and more options for players to enjoy Stepmania.

It might sound like I'm only talking about the keyboard players, but that's because I don't have any insight in the pad community. However, I've completely understood that this isn't solely for the sake of ffr and that this is for all kind of players. I think that the unification of all communities is a very good idea, and it's a very kind thought of you to help people to get started making files. The point that I don't agree on is that you treat techniques as basics. If you read what I wrote to wc and what I've written below this mass of text you'll see how I look at it.
This is how I look at these classes from the art parable you just used. The art techniques that you're teaching at the moment is only a few of the ones that exist. If this keeps on more and more people won't have any understanding for any other art techniques. Unless you get a professional instructor for every art technique this will go on, and I quite doubt that you will achieve that.

Originally Posted by Shikari

Edit: Gellenduo, I payed more attention to the final lines of your post and seems like you took this idea almost completely wrong. The idea was originally made in FFR, yes, but I NEVER, I repeat, I NEVER said FFR was more right than other communities. I just thought it'd be a cool idea to keep the stepmaking community on movement, and when I say "stepmaking community", I mean the WHOLE community, because people don't only play keyboard files.

No, directly you didn't. Although wc is right about other smaller communities not having any unique techniques. Usually they either make their simfiles more simplified instead of resorting to complicated techniques, or they have styles that almost never has any need of such techniques (example: QED). However, since you brought up color theory and the term ”techniques”, which I just said was something that is used more by ffr/odi/kbo etc than smaller communities, it appeared like you thought that, by knowing these ”ffr/odi/kbo”-adapted techniques, one would have it easier to get into making files, aka teaching them how to make files more enjoyable, aka ”becoming better”.

@Shikari, wc, anyone else interested: If I can come with a suggestion as an alternative, I think that a thread with every technique and stepping approach etc would be a very nice idea. That way anyone who would like to adapt their stepstyle would be able to do it whenever they wanted to instead of having to wait for an instructor. Every stepping mindset would be presented and taught equally. I also think that a lot more people would like to contribute to this, since being an online instructor must be a very tough and time-consuming task. Of course I think that online lessons about rhythm, syncing, x-mods etc would be a nice introduction, but as I've mentioned I think that it should be done without mentioning any techniques that could work as propaganda for a certain community/communities general approach on simfiles.
I just want to clearify this one last time: I think that classes about techniques would work fair and equally if you had an equal amount of active instructors from every community and place that has different perspectives on stepmania, but that doesn't seem very easy in my opinion.
Please leave your feedback about this idea.

[Shikari]

Gellenduo, I was making a huge response, but gave up, since I don't want any TL;DR stuff (but this post will be kinda long anyway). Well, if I seemed to mean that FFR is above other communities, I'm sorry, because I didn't want to mean it. To clarify: I brought the term "classes" because, originally, that was the term for this project. And I brought back this project because, since we are going to start a new community, new people will be interested in making files and will want to "learn" how to do so. Why not making stepartists give tips, hints to these newcomers on how to do so? That was the idea. With using terms like "color theory", I didn't mean to say that FFR, who uses this technique a lot, is better at making files than solo, pad and anime communities. I used it as an example, and only as an example, not as propaganda.

Anyway, to make this project happen again, I need pad, solo and anime stepartists to agree with it, willing to give newcomers hints on how to step files, because, as I mentioned before, Stepmania isn't only about keyboard.

[AsphyxZero]

I'm not going to be able to do my packs, I found out that I clear the military installation this week. Which is awesome. But I don't have time for much

[Shikari]

No problem, Mike, this task is on hold at the moment, since there still is working over a new difficulty rating system. Good luck with army btw.

[kommisar]

does that mean you're not getting discharged mike

[kommisar]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Well technically that's the whole point of a scaled system. It doesn't need anything subjective.

good luck making a globally accepted rating then

[AsphyxZero]

Originally Posted by kommisar

does that mean you're not getting discharged mike

I leave the military this weekend : D

[Oni-Paranoia]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

If something gets passed, then it gets factored into the difficulty scales. Typically speaking, passes tend to still be shitty scores. So if you take into account who's playing the file (likely a strong player with strong skill ratings) and the fact that they got a crappy score on a previously-unpassed song, the difficulty metric will take care of itself.

Re: NPS: My only qualm with NPS is that it says nothing about the patterns. A 10 NPS jack is much harder than a 10 NPS stream.

If you can make NPS determine if a song has jacks are not, then this problem with NPS would be solved. Which is what I hope a visual representation could take care of.

On another note, I still think a 1-100 scale is most fair. Otherwise we are going to get a scale where a low 30 and a high 30 may be a big jump. On top of that, the visual idea I want to do should clarify any discrepancies from the number rating.

Originally Posted by kommisar

good luck making a globally accepted rating then

Any rating at this point that we can develop is going to be better than any rating set in the past (I hope?). The key here is to develop a good system at the start of this project. At least this way, we have something we can stretch with later.

[ddrxero64]

Originally Posted by Oni-Paranoia

On another note, I still think a 1-100 scale is most fair. Otherwise we are going to get a scale where a low 30 and a high 30 may be a big jump. On top of that, the visual idea I want to do should clarify any discrepancies from the number rating.

I highly doubt that at 30 NPS it'll be too big of a jump. Once again, FudgeFactor brings in the subjectivty needed.

I propose an idea, or this rating discussion will go on forever.

Take a random and very familiar pack (HSMP? something with all kinds of files, pad, spread, index, etc.), and have everyone who supports a different rating convert it to their own rating.

Now compare the ratings. How close are some ratings, and how close are the actual difficulty in songs? Which ratings are easily understood, and which are still vague?

Instead of talking about it, provide physical and virtual evidence on why you think one is better. I actually don't want to involve myself anymore supporting NPS, but I think this idea is something people here could benefit from to move the discussion forward somewhat.

[who_cares973]

Originally Posted by Gellenduo

Define what a ”good” simfile artist is, because if you look at Midare's or QED's files you'll see that they very seldom and sometimes never use any techniques that emphasizes any certain sound, which style has no use of any of these ffr/odi/kbo-based theories and techniques. ”When the chances arise” is subjective and dependent on your style.
How can you be so sure that there will be represantives? As far as I know there are barely any posts about this anywhere. I'm a regular on Otaku's Dream and there hasn't been any talk about it at all from what I've heard. Besides, it's a very time-consuming and not very attractive task. If you really want to let more communities to know about this idea you shouldn't wait for someone else to spread news about it and do it yourself.

A good simfile artist is someone who has consistently made enjoyable charts for numerous people. while it may not seem like it midare and QED do indeed use their own techniques to emphasize different sounds and feelings of the songs. i'll say it again, making knowledge available does not make it propaganda and it doesnt mean that we are trying to force feed our styles of stepping onto others. this project is still very much in its early stages and im sure once we have everything more or less settled we will start to reach out to other communities

The point that I don't agree on is that you treat techniques as basics.

this might be were there is a misunderstanding.i would never treat any techniques as basics. once people are comfortable with the fundamentals(sync, note types, editor basics, and what have you). once people have a firm grasp on that then all the information for everything else will become available to them but nothing will be taught to be superior to anything else and from there people can make files how they see fit using the information made available to them and with that information they might even make their own techniques. the last thing i would ever want to do is give someone a strict guide to stepping. this is not how i learned to step and it is not how i would want anyone else to learn to step.

@Shikari, wc, anyone else interested: If I can come with a suggestion as an alternative, I think that a thread with every technique and stepping approach etc would be a very nice idea. That way anyone who would like to adapt their stepstyle would be able to do it whenever they wanted to instead of having to wait for an instructor

this is actually how i thought the stepping classes would be handled. every technique being taught would be a different thread where examples are shown about how it can be applied in different situations and what not. the instructors would really just be there to answer question and help when people needed more info on certain aspects of stepping. i dont think anyone would really have the time to hold online chat sessions every day as a class to teach certain things. although an online chat where people can talk about stepping would be pretty cool