Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

[-zeroSKILL-]

Remedy, I think you and 95%+ of the community feel the same.

And stavie, I have read every single word of your long winded posts. What this tier point system is trying to accomplish, and what you want it to accomplish and how you feel it should be are at complete odds with each other.

In your mind you shouldn't be awarded TP for AAA'ing Tambourin Chinois when you are given no TP for AAA'ing Fast Asleep, because Fast Asleep is harder. This is *wrong*.

And your comment about this making it harder to determine better players because of your imaginary plot line is absolutely ridiculous. That would occur more if players received TP in clumps. And by "clumps" I mean people that *have* mastered a certain difficulty. In your mind you seem to think it only okay for people that have mastered a certain difficulty to receive TP in that difficulty, and that this will somehow be able to segregate people into a certain skill sect. Wtf... Just seriously... Wtf?

If players are given a guideline of steadily progressing difficult songs to master then they are forced to overcome hurdles to gain TP right from the moment they start playing FFR. Your first FC on a low difficulty 7 grants TP. Your first AAA on that 7 grants TP. You then work your way towards AAA'ing your low difficulty 8 (which I feel should be Emerald Hill just for nostalgia sake), and then you are given the goal of AAA'ing a 9, and so on and so forth.

Granting TP to solely the most difficult files in a certain difficulty range does nothing more than show that people who are getting a consistent amount of TP in the VC range should maybe be considered for higher placement in tourney's. It's better to see if a player can perform equally well on a suggestively easy file as they can on a "hard" file. Your mention of...

Originally Posted by stavie

(Fantrastic and Rose are comparable, Carrousel Paradise and Bus Rides with People are like two other worlds)

comes to mind. For me, Carrousel is infinitely easier than Rose ever will be. Carrousel should be a 9 imo. BRWP on the other hand.... should be an 11.

People who want TP to be recognized will seek AAA's or good PA on the files in the TP list, and have a more accurate representation of their skill shown for it if we include low-mid-high difficulty songs across the board in difficulty ranges rather than pack all the hardest files of each difficulty into the TP awarding bunch. I really don't understand how this concept eludes/confuses you.

People who can AAA high 10's *should* easily be capable of attaining all TP's from high 10's and down. If they are not capable of this, then there is a discrepancy in their skill level, and something needs to be taken into consideration when placing them in tournaments or whatever. People who can barely AAA an 8, they will have far fewer points than the person AAA'ing Feldschlact, and their TP's will show this.

If your TP's aren't an accurate representation of your skill after this, you either need to play more and stop being such a fucking lazy cunt with your level ranks, or you can sit in the corner and cry some more.

If you can AAA Tambourin Chinois and receive full tP on it, SDG Hero's Theme (w.i.p.) and get partial TP, and not even FC Feldschlact your TP's will show that accordingly. You shouldn't just get TP on the hardest files, because once you can AAA BRWP or Feld, what's stopping you from AAA'ing every other 10?

Originally Posted by stavie

We'll see how this works, I'm expecting tons of people to be landing in very high upper tiers, many in lower, and a huge, unnatural gap in the middle which would be adjusted then by extending points required to reach higher ranks exponentially, thus causing a break in the plot range and making it even harder to determine accurate placement.

With the way you suggest TP's work I can see this happening. The way it's set up I find it laughable that you even think this is a possibility. People who are lazy with their levelranks may find this happening, but it's their own damn fault. Stop being so fucking lazy and play the damn game if you care that much about your TP's.

[iironiic]

Solid list there Mike. I like the good mixture of relative difficulties shown in your list.

And stavie, you need to learn how to shorten your posts lmfao. I'm too lazy to read walls of text early this morning xD.

EDIT: Judging by what zero said, it seems that you are attempting to make Tier Points only doable for the gurus in the game. I completely disagree with that since I know a few people who were discouraged when it comes to playing the game for fun. A lot of FFR has become "elitist" these days. We are trying to stray away from that so that more people enjoy the game for the sake of it being a fun game to play rather than figuring out who's the best of the best. There are already figures that determines that. We don't need tier points to be another figure for the gurus.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by -zeroSKILL-

If your TP's aren't an accurate representation of your skill after this, you either need to play more and stop being such a fucking lazy cunt with your level ranks, or you can sit in the corner and cry some more.

With the way you suggest TP's work I can see this happening. The way it's set up I find it laughable that you even think this is a possibility. People who are lazy with their levelranks may find this happening, but it's their own damn fault. Stop being so fucking lazy and play the damn game if you care that much about your TP's.

Is this directed at me? My averagerank is 8 and I have a AAA on every 10 and under songs and tons of FMO's, what are you smoking? Go check things out before you start yelling at someone for being a 'lazy ****'. I obviously play this game more diligently than you as well, so I find that comment extremely unwarranted, and once more you seem to miss the point.

[TC_Halogen]

Guys, take it easy. This is supposed to be a community collaboration, not a civil war.

The Tier Point list is supposed to be for elite players. What most people aren't realizing is that a majority of the active community falls in the top groups of scores (VC+ AAAs), and while you may not believe it - you too are elite as well. Tier points should start where the game begins getting more difficult for players because it gives them somewhere to strive for.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by iironiic

Solid list there Mike. I like the good mixture of relative difficulties shown in your list.

And stavie, you need to learn how to shorten your posts lmfao. I'm too lazy to read walls of text early this morning xD.

EDIT: Judging by what zero said, it seems that you are attempting to make Tier Points only doable for the gurus in the game. I completely disagree with that since I know a few people who were discouraged when it comes to playing the game for fun. A lot of FFR has become "elitist" these days. We are trying to stray away from that so that more people enjoy the game for the sake of it being a fun game to play rather than figuring out who's the best of the best. There are already figures that determines that. We don't need tier points to be another figure for the gurus.

It's not. It's not being elitist, as I said, by extending it to 7's, how it this giving points to guru's? Guru's AAA'ing 7's isn't even a question so having them would be irrelevant in that case, we're extending it so new players can aim for tier points from the beginning. People seem to be forgetting how tier points worked in that if you could do easier songs, you were capable of snatching tier points of the harder ones in that difficulty with FC's and shaved goods, which meant they were probably down in the lower range of that difficulty, the higher points they got on those songs, the more their skill was represented.

My main issue is this dilemma here:

Let's say we have 32 songs of difficulty 72 and below, and 8 songs of difficulty 73+. There are two players who have all tier points on all the songs 72 under and equal points of the 73+ of around 15 goods max (no SDG's). One of these players is incapable of getting good scores on most of the higher difficulty songs, but can shave down to a few points for this list, the other player, can also shave down goods on the few selected songs on the list and grab maybe 5 more tier points by being slightly better at these particular songs. This player however, is capable of AAA'ing a few 73's and some easier 74's that don't show up on this list, because some people are better at certain songs, and others aren't. They will share points all the way up the ladder except for maybe a few due to the small amount of difficult songs we've chosen (and outside of SDG'ing, it's easy to shave off good for points), but the one who can AAA some 73's and 74's is clearly has a much larger skill ability than the one who can barely shave off 73's-74's. But because they share tier points, and there are many high songs not represented, their skill gap will not be represented accurately, it could be a huge skill gap and it just doesn't accommodate to the new tier lists selections. By choosing all the hard songs, we would know based on your scores there what you are capable of all around. If you can only do the easier songs (AAA them) in a difficulty, you should be able to FC/clean FC/maybe even SDG the harder ones, but those who can AAA 3 or 4 of the harder songs, or just SDG a clump of them should be represented with a much larger skill gap, as the gap IS much larger between them, as I was trying to show with my >>>>>> display earlier. I don't feel this list will accurately represent that skill gap. Tiers are not meant to be 'oh I'm a guru look at my elusive points', they are a system to show where players fall in skill groups and how they compare to each other, with this, it will become extremely close and some who can AAA hard songs not represented will be much closer to those who can also AAA all the easier songs represented and the skill gap will be much smaller than it actually is, thus a lot of mid players will fall close in the upper echelons with some very skilled players and those who are just new or incapable of AAA'ing 8's get stuck way behind while once you can do 9's, the difference in points closes up much quicker. Maybe I'm bad at saying this but does any one understand what I'm trying to describe? Everyone seems to be telling me other things than I'm trying to say (like your trying to make tier points elitist or something stupid like that).

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Guys, take it easy. This is supposed to be a community collaboration, not a civil war.

The Tier Point list is supposed to be for elite players. What most people aren't realizing is that a majority of the active community falls in the top groups of scores (VC+ AAAs), and while you may not believe it - you too are elite as well. Tier points should start where the game begins getting more difficult for players because it gives them somewhere to strive for.

Exactly this. EXACTLY THIS. And by moving it down to the 7 range, we have started tier points where the game gets more difficult. That was our goal, we did that by including 7's and not just FMO's (which is what the other list was leaning toward). This does NOT mean however, that we should be giving out easy songs so that people can get freebee tier points and feel accomplished for doing so (I constantly here new players should be able to get tier points and feel accomplished so they can push for more later, that's fine, but don't select easier songs so it's easier to get tier points, that defeats the purpose). If you can do the easier songs, you should be nabbing the low number tier points on the higher ones in that difficulty anyways, so they have tier points regardless.

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

The Tier Point list is supposed to be for elite players. What most people aren't realizing is that a majority of the active community falls in the top groups of scores (VC+ AAAs), and while you may not believe it - you too are elite as well. Tier points should start where the game begins getting more difficult for players because it gives them somewhere to strive for.

This states my biggest issue with the old system and how it's being fixed with this list. Which is sweet.

Also @Stavie: Just because you're skilled enough to AAA all the hardest songs, doesn't mean using lower AND higher ends of the spectrum gives out freebies to anyone. All the points on these lists still has to be earned by taking the time to AAA it at least once, that alone is difficult enough. Just assume that the Tier Points will be allocated to accommodate for the fact it's easier (ala worth less) and calm down.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by stavie33

Exactly this. EXACTLY THIS. And by moving it down to the 7 range, we have started tier points where the game gets more difficult. That was our goal, we did that by including 7's and not just FMO's (which is what the other list was leaning toward). This does NOT mean however, that we should be giving out easy songs so that people can get freebee tier points and feel accomplished for doing so (I constantly here new players should be able to get tier points and feel accomplished so they can push for more later, that's fine, but don't select easier songs so it's easier to get tier points, that defeats the purpose). If you can do the easier songs, you should be nabbing the low number tier points on the higher ones in that difficulty anyways, so they have tier points regardless.

Here's a question though: what's the point of including lower level files when you're going to take the tops of those particular difficulties? It will actually be somewhat discouraging to someone who is capable of handling lower level file difficulties (talking about someone who AAAs mid-7's and just noticed this list). It's better to include the entire range of 7-13, not just the tops of each difficulty -- consider the 100 point scale; you would have multiple point gaps in between each tier level, which is just awkward, and somewhat disorganized.

[stavie33]

As I said, I'm just going to wait till the list is done. I forgot that you are assigning different point scales per song now (different than before) so I'll assume the points you assign will balance the list. We'll see how it works, I'm perfectly fine with that, I wasn't against the list, I was addressing a concern I had with the functionality of the system, I wasn't trying to agitate people. The community has never really liked me or my opinions/concerns/ideas, so I shouldn't expect you guys to look at this as a question and a solution addressing concerns and you all view it as an attack on an opinion that everyone except me seems to think is held unanimously. Whatever. I'll wait and see how it works, good job everyone, I'll try to help with what I can without stating my worries or opinions, maybe I'll just compliment people for doing well like Remedy and his list.

[iironiic]

@Stavie:

If I am understanding you correctly, I agree that this isn't an accurate reflection of skill, but that's not what Tier Points are solely focusing on. Time commitment and dedication are also factored into the equation to obtain these tier points, which is completely understandable since rewards should be given to those who at least try. Do you believe that these two components should be rewarded as well via tier points?

[hXcalltheway]

Holy shit too time consuming to read all these. Yall have fun debating this. I'm sure the opinions of just you few will be whatever the million other players want too Just saying. I could give two shits what the final decision is to be honest.

[BahamutZER0]

Tbh, I've only read some of Stavie's posts but my thoughts:

As long as there is a continuous steady stream of more difficult songs to get tier points on, aren't they just as accurate as choosing the songs in clumps at the high end of each ingame difficulty? I mean the ingame difficulties when you get down to it are just arbitrary cutoffs anyway. Sure you may miss out on getting points for being able to play more songs at the high end of some difficulty but you can always get points for low-mid songs in the next difficulty up instead.

The only problem I would see with this is that you lose some ability to distinguish players at the absolute high end of the spectrum depending on how FGOs are distributed, which I wouldn't really know anything about since I can't even come close to playing those :V

This is assuming you don't have graduate from one difficulty to the next or something which I had gotten the sense wasn't going to be the case.

[remedy1502]

Originally Posted by stavie33

Let's say we have 32 songs of difficulty 72 and below, and 8 songs of difficulty 73+. There are two players who have all tier points on all the songs 72 under and equal points of the 73+ of around 15 goods max (no SDG's). One of these players is incapable of getting good scores on most of the higher difficulty songs, but can shave down to a few points for this list, the other player, can also shave down goods on the few selected songs on the list and grab maybe 5 more tier points by being slightly better at these particular songs. This player however, is capable of AAA'ing a few 73's and some easier 74's that don't show up on this list, because some people are better at certain songs, and others aren't.

You strive to improve these songs and the skills they require. I see no problem with this. You make a goal, work at your goal, achieve your goal. You get more tier points, you get better, you are more on your way to bigger and better things. Or at least being able to do harder files.

They will share points all the way up the ladder except for maybe a few due to the small amount of difficult songs we've chosen (and outside of SDG'ing, it's easy to shave off good for points), but the one who can AAA some 73's and 74's is clearly has a much larger skill ability than the one who can barely shave off 73's-74's. But because they share tier points, and there are many high songs not represented, their skill gap will not be represented accurately, it could be a huge skill gap and it just doesn't accommodate to the new tier lists selections. By choosing all the hard songs, we would know based on your scores there what you are capable of all around. If you can only do the easier songs (AAA them) in a difficulty, you should be able to FC/clean FC/maybe even SDG the harder ones, but those who can AAA 3 or 4 of the harder songs, or just SDG a clump of them should be represented with a much larger skill gap, as the gap IS much larger between them, as I was trying to show with my >>>>>> display earlier.

I disagree with that bolded statement. A long time ago I had some easier FGOs SDG'd, but anything harder I would essentially have to mash to even FC it. Some people have an extremely difficult time with songs harder than their skill limit, and their PA absolutely plummets (like me). I still haven't FC'd WWE, can't FC Almost There, M8BT, and other higher FGOs without mashing. If you were around (probably not) for the 4th DF tourney, one round TTE was chosen. I got 2 goods. The next round was Kidney Stone. I had 130ish goods + avs + misses + boos.

I don't feel this list will accurately represent that skill gap. Tiers are not meant to be 'oh I'm a guru look at my elusive points', they are a system to show where players fall in skill groups and how they compare to each other, with this, it will become extremely close and some who can AAA hard songs not represented will be much closer to those who can also AAA all the easier songs represented and the skill gap will be much smaller than it actually is, thus a lot of mid players will fall close in the upper echelons with some very skilled players and those who are just new or incapable of AAA'ing 8's get stuck way behind while once you can do 9's, the difference in points closes up much quicker.

If Player B can AAA these harder files and Player A can't, Player B should be closer to being able to score well on harder songs. They might be like me where their PA goes to shit if something is too hard, but they have less distance to travel to get to that next level, which will increase that TP gap which you feel is going to be closer than it should.
Also, there are going to be FMO/FGO lists. I seriously doubt that once you can do 9s, you will be coming close to the elite players who are AAAing FGOs. This isn't finished with only 7-10. Don't forget there's more to come.

Originally Posted by BahamutZER0

The only problem I would see with this is that you lose some ability to distinguish players at the absolute high end of the spectrum depending on how FGOs are distributed, which I wouldn't really know anything about since I can't even come close to playing those :V

I would assume that the FMO/FGO lists will include more files, and most of the harder files, based on the fact that everyone is getting better, and there are a ton of people up in FGO AAA territory, or at least have the potential to get there soon. Everyone is good now. The FGO list MUST break up the highest tier.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by iironiic

@Stavie:
Time commitment and dedication are also factored into the equation to obtain these tier points, which is completely understandable since rewards should be given to those who at least try. Do you believe that these two components should be rewarded as well via tier points?

I always thought those were components for level/avranks, which involve the most time commitment and dedication of any ranks on this site. I always assumed tier points was meant to give an accurate measure of skill among players. If we are rewarding for that, I liked my previous idea that there are requirement for songs in difficulties and you get 'badges' or 'achievements' listed by your username, which I always though would be cool. And they went in levels like play all of the songs in each difficulty (and once you go up a level, you can't go down a level, so if you hit the 10's, and a new 7 comes out, you don't go back down), and they would go from there FC 25%, FC 50%, FC 100%, SDG 25%, SDG 50%, SDG 100%, AAA 10%, AAA 25%, AAA 50%, AAA 100%. This is for each difficulty, and you get badges for them that would make people strive for more dedication and time commitment. But tier points I don't think are for dedication, that was always lvlranks to me, I still am under the impression tier points are for skill, are obtained through skill, and are meant to represent skill, not dedication and time commitment, that's overall and avrank.

But if you guys want tier points to have time commitment and dedication factored in, thus giving incentives through easy-mid songs, be my guest, it's not for me to decide.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by remedy1502

I disagree with that bolded statement. A long time ago I had some easier FGOs SDG'd, but anything harder I would essentially have to mash to even FC it. Some people have an extremely difficult time with songs harder than their skill limit, and their PA absolutely plummets (like me). I still haven't FC'd WWE, can't FC Almost There, M8BT, and other higher FGOs without mashing. If you were around (probably not) for the 4th DF tourney, one round TTE was chosen. I got 2 goods. The next round was Kidney Stone. I had 130ish goods + avs + misses + boos.

FGO is a huge gap that needs fixing and specifying, as the difference between difficulties there is exponential in comparison, but that's different. I get what you're saying, and I am forgetting that there are FMO/FGO lists to come with more than 25 songs each, so that's true, as I said, I'll see how this goes, it might be fine. I guess it's just my preference at this point, because this brings back my thought that if we are still having FMO/FGO and lost of C and VC songs, then if we go down to 7's, why not choose the 7's worthy of tier points? Tier points still equate till skill points to me, that doesn't mean elite, that means it judges your skill, so I always felt that you should take the songs that require the most skill in a difficulty, because they are the ones worthy of giving you skill points. But at that level, it's a preference, so yeah, we'll see how it goes, I'm anxiously awaiting the FMO/FGO lists, but I hope nearly all FMO's are included (except the ones we said we won't include like old BG files), I'd hate to just toss out some.

[-zeroSKILL-]

Originally Posted by stavie33

Is this directed at me? My averagerank is 8 and I have a AAA on every 10 and under songs and tons of FMO's, what are you smoking? Go check things out before you start yelling at someone for being a 'lazy ****'. I obviously play this game more diligently than you as well, so I find that comment extremely unwarranted, and once more you seem to miss the point.

Just started reading through the thread. Might have more to add to this post after I finish reading, but no, that comment was not directed at you. I know you have many FMO and even a few FGO's. Those comments are directed towards players that play nothing other than VC+ because lower difficulty files are "boring" to them. I wasn't making a personal attack on you, just a broad sweeping attack on all the players that neglect lower difficulty ranges.

edit:
k, finished reading.

Originally Posted by remedy1502

If Player B can AAA these harder files and Player A can't, Player B should be closer to being able to score well on harder songs. They might be like me where their PA goes to shit if something is too hard, but they have less distance to travel to get to that next level, which will increase that TP gap which you feel is going to be closer than it should.
Also, there are going to be FMO/FGO lists. I seriously doubt that once you can do 9s, you will be coming close to the elite players who are AAAing FGOs. This isn't finished with only 7-10. Don't forget there's more to come.

Originally Posted by BahamutZER0

Tbh, I've only read some of Stavie's posts but my thoughts:

As long as there is a continuous steady stream of more difficult songs to get tier points on, aren't they just as accurate as choosing the songs in clumps at the high end of each ingame difficulty? I mean the ingame difficulties when you get down to it are just arbitrary cutoffs anyway. Sure you may miss out on getting points for being able to play more songs at the high end of some difficulty but you can always get points for low-mid songs in the next difficulty up instead.

Originally Posted by stavie33

and I am forgetting that there are FMO/FGO lists to come with more than 25 songs each, so that's true

Basically, yeah... it seems like you forgot that we're including FMO/FGO's as well. There is no need to make all the TP granting VC's the hardest VC's. There shouldn't be any huge gap between players of similar skill. 7-10's are just a way of measuring how quickly you're progressing imo, and then the real test does start in the FMO range. No need to include *almost FMO* VC files.

There will be plenty of FMO+ files to test "skill" on if you don't feel there are enough VC files that do that.

[emulord]

Since we're grabbing songs of several skill types and difficulties, I feel like the gaps won't be that significant for long. You need someone who can do the same type of patterns, but who is just mindblocked on tier point songs, in which case, its their own fault.

Also, why the hate on older files? reading incorrect colors / backgrounds / blue is a skill as well. Id actually be in favor of having Story of Snowman and sunshine girl and 136.6, Marissa or P4U v2, but I doubt other people would agree.
If you want to have good blue charts, CIA Rave, Beethoven Virus, Molto vivace are good charts.
Good incorrect colors: Domani, Automata, Delirium

[igotrhythm]

Automata is not incorrectly colored. The BPM just spikes at that point. Agree with Domani/Delirium, though (both of which also throw in a REALLY BRIGHT background!).

Edit: Just went and fixed my Domani (about damn time...I remember being top 100 on that), and I have found that like Delirium, the real test of the song is consistency. The color errors in both songs force the player to focus on the patterns while staying on the beat, so they are worthy challenges for up and coming players.

[i love you]

@emulord: Honestly, I would like to keep the legacy files off the Tier Point system. As for older files, I do not mind having older songs into the system however it's good to have newer ones into the list as well. Also, remember that we are currently dealing with D-VC right now so stay focused picking songs in that idea.

[Poison-]

+1 for not having Legacy songs in the TP system.