6th Official FFR Tournament - Is over, Congrats to all our winners!

[Ryusei_]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

You do realize that EVERY division has this right? Did you also take the time to compare those people from D4 with those in D3, especially the lower D3 players? They'd be absolutely destroyed by these people. The people in D3 pretty much consist of heavy gets with a few 10's SDGd maybe one or two AAAd if they're the lower level 10s. There is NO possible way to have it even with 6 divisions. If any division actually has any right to complain it's D6 because their skill difference is drastic, but unfortunately it's the nature of these tournaments.

Not once did I say D4 was alone in this, only that it was the best one I can directly pull statistics off the top of my head because it's my division and I've actually looked up people in it.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that something that would have made this go a little better is dropping the bottom portion of each division DOWN a division, thus eliminating that scenario you just pointed out. and boosting up the general skill level of each division . (Example: If say, bottom 5 in D4 drop down to D3, and D3 drops it's bottom 5 to D2 etc...No, those aren't exact numbers and would have to be worked on as a case-by-case basis, but the logic is there.)

What you THINK a person is capable of when their scores don't really back it up is kind of a moot point. There are people in each division that very honestly have no chance of winning (or even top 8ing in most cases) and THAT more than anything seems to defeat the purpose entirely.

[jprox445]

Originally Posted by Ryusei_

Not once did I say D4 was alone in this, only that it was the best one I can directly pull statistics off the top of my head because it's my division and I've actually looked up people in it.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that something that would have made this go a little better is dropping the bottom portion of each division DOWN a division, thus eliminating that scenario you just pointed out. and boosting up the general skill level of each division . (Example: If say, bottom 5 in D4 drop down to D3, and D3 drops it's bottom 5 to D2 etc...No, those aren't exact numbers and would have to be worked on as a case-by-case basis, but the logic is there.)

What you THINK a person is capable of when their scores don't really back it up is kind of a moot point. There are people in each division that very honestly have no chance of winning (or even top 8ing in most cases) and THAT more than anything seems to defeat the purpose entirely.

It could work, but then again.. some people havnt even begone to get their scores in certain divisions.. look at D6 and some D4... they got a lot of people don't even have a score up yet..

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by wildfireskunk

People are always going to be unhappy with division-based tournaments, because a lot of people won't be clearly in 1 division. Much in the way that there is such an uproar over a lot of the ratings regarding songs (let's look at D4s song in this very tournament), there were probably a ton of people who were looked at, and it wasn't really clear where they'd sit. "Put them in D4? Well, their stats suggest that if put in D3, they'd perform incredibly well against everyone and probably win. But then again, here in D4 they're barely sitting above the average mark." I'm sure there were situations like that a LOT, and all you can do is make a judgement call. You'll get some people who will struggle to get past the first couple of rounds, and some people who will dominate and be the favourites, but you can't blame the organisers of the tournament for placing them 'incorrectly' when this will ALWAYS be the case due to the extremely varied skill levels of the entrants. You'd probably need about 50 divisions if you wanted everyone to put into the 'correct' one, and even then you'd have people who looked better.

The D4 song it's self was very on the border to us anyway. It kinda went like this

AJ: This song looks like a 9
Me: I dunno I think it might be a 10.
AJ: Some stuff about stuff that he usually explains lol
Me: But these jack things seem pretty tough and those little 32nd things.
AJ: The bpm blah blah blah etc etc
Me: Hmm looking at it some more I think it probably is a 9, it's comparable to things like "rambles off various 9s"

The problem with this particular song, I think, comes down to pattern bias, some people have an easier time with the stuff in this chart then others. Regardless of the rating though I wanted a border file to kick D4 off, actually wanted to try to be border in most of the divisions to prevent AAA fests.

And it's the truth, it's impossible to have people placed perfectly because there's too many people at different levels. There's always going to be the underdogs in a division but with a week to whore the song you'd be surprised what you can do. I was the underdog a few times and I just played like hell and hey maybe I didn't always get a prize but I usually walked away with a good skill increase which was good enough for me. Now I'm on the lower end of this division when it comes to the 11's and 12s, I'm going to try like hell to pull myself up to par with these guys. And if I don't well there's always next time.

[popsicle_3000]

Originally Posted by jprox445

This makes me looks even worse :C sorry....

lol, NP, not pointing anyone out, just to show perspective :P

[Ryusei_]

Originally Posted by jprox445

It could work, but then again.. some people havnt even begone to get their scores in certain divisions.. look at D6 and some D4... they got a lot of people don't even have a score up yet..

You haven't posted anything constructive about this yet other than post count +1.

[jprox445]

Originally Posted by Ryusei_

You haven't posted anything constructive about this yet other than post count +1.

if you think i'm just a post whore i'll stop then :C

jeez....

[popsicle_3000]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

The D4 song it's self was very on the border to us anyway. It kinda went like this

AJ: This song looks like a 9
Me: I dunno I think it might be a 10.
AJ: Some stuff about stuff that he usually explains lol
Me: But these jack things seem pretty tough and those little 32nd things.
AJ: The bpm blah blah blah etc etc
Me: Hmm looking at it some more I think it probably is a 9, it's comparable to things like "rambles off various 9s"

BAHAHA, this made my day

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by Ryusei_

Not once did I say D4 was alone in this, only that it was the best one I can directly pull statistics off the top of my head because it's my division and I've actually looked up people in it.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that something that would have made this go a little better is dropping the bottom portion of each division DOWN a division, thus eliminating that scenario you just pointed out. and boosting up the general skill level of each division . (Example: If say, bottom 5 in D4 drop down to D3, and D3 drops it's bottom 5 to D2 etc...No, those aren't exact numbers and would have to be worked on as a case-by-case basis, but the logic is there.)

What you THINK a person is capable of when their scores don't really back it up is kind of a moot point. There are people in each division that very honestly have no chance of winning (or even top 8ing in most cases) and THAT more than anything seems to defeat the purpose entirely.

So basically just end up with the same thing? All you do is put higher players down which pushes mid players of that division down to where the lower ones were. How does this solve anything? The fact of it is you can be a bottom player and come out on top.

Really the divisions that are taking it hardest are D1 and D6 when it comes to difference in skill. D1 has people that can't AAA anything up to people who can AAA a 6 altho we tried to keep the 6 AAA scarce and move most of those people to D2 if they had some other songs to work with in the D2 area. And then D6 where if you had a 12 AAA it was pretty much auto D6 with a few exceptions or if you had a majority of the 11s AAAd it got you in D6 where they're against people like Dossar.

[xXAll-ProXx]

I understand that it is not possible to have everyone placed perfectly, that's just an illogical thing to expect from any tournament. However, I don't understand why breaking "traditions" is such a big deal. Tournaments are supposed to improve year by year, this is exactly why you revised the tournaments every year and added more divisions to make placements more fair. I know this is a big thing to ask and I'm not asking you to do it now. This is just a suggestion for the NEXT tournament that's going to hopefully happen next year. If we had 7 divisions, then all other true "D6'ers" like me, Stavie, Remedy, PlanB, Socon, Krunky, Hakulyte, etc.. would actually have a chance of winning in their division.

[Darkbreezee]

Fall silently is kinda difficult , so pretty amazing job on that blackflag!

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

The D4 song it's self was very on the border to us anyway. It kinda went like this

AJ: This song looks like a 9
Me: I dunno I think it might be a 10.
AJ: Some stuff about stuff that he usually explains lol
Me: But these jack things seem pretty tough and those little 32nd things.
AJ: The bpm blah blah blah etc etc
Me: Hmm looking at it some more I think it probably is a 9, it's comparable to things like "rambles off various 9s"

oh you :3

Ambient Angels

Me: this looks like an 11.
Kayla: jumpstream is too short
Me: it's really dense...
Kayla: pattern flows really well
Me: the jumpstream is 167 BPM
Kayla: it's only 20 seconds
Me: It's still an 11.
Kayla: nope.

(and we won't ever get each other to agree )

EDIT: also, the whole reason why I'm opposed to a 7th division: sticking players in a 7th division just makes those who fall into a border in that much worse of a predicament by either being a winner of D6, or absolutely obliterated in D7, because at that point, there's really no hope for anyone at that border area. Do they deserve to do incredibly poorly in the tournament when they've tuned their skills to be a huge contender in a normal, 6 division tournament? - extra divisions doesn't solve anything. flights make divisions too small, and small divisions make competition not worth while. there's -never- going to be a win-win situation.

[reuben_tate]

Originally Posted by CammyGoesRawr

[SS of blackflag]

~underdogmanias~

[Ryusei_]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

The fact of it is you can be a bottom player and come out on top.

This is such a dangerous mindset to be in while placing people. Just because it has happened in a few cases does not mean it should be a factor when placing people by any stretch of the imagination.

Because 9 times out of 10, it does NOT happen.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by jprox445

if you think i'm just a post whore i'll stop then :C

jeez....

I don't think you're a postwhore. I think somebody is just in a bad mood

Originally Posted by xXAll-ProXx

I understand that it is not possible to have everyone placed perfectly, that's just an illogical thing to expect from any tournament. However, I don't understand why breaking "traditions" is such a big deal. Tournaments are supposed to improve year by year, this is exactly why you revised the tournaments every year and added more divisions to make placements more fair. I know this is a big thing to ask and I'm not asking you to do it now. This is just a suggestion for the NEXT tournament that's going to hopefully happen next year. If we had 7 divisions, then all other true "D6'ers" like me, Stavie, Remedy, PlanB, Socon, Krunky, Hakulyte, etc.. would actually have a chance of winning in their division.

This was discussed at the beg of this tourney and I had thought about it but the problem is there just isn't enough people that fit into that D7 just yet. What fun is a tournament where a division has all of like maybe 7 people in it and the thing lasts 2 months. The best advice I give to those who may be a bit out of their league is to use this to push themselves to get better.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Ryusei_

This is such a dangerous mindset to be in while placing people. Just because it has happened in a few cases does not mean it should be a factor when placing people by any stretch of the imagination.

Because 9 times out of 10, it does NOT happen.

no it's not, because if you're an underdog in a higher division, then chances are you're a dominator in the division below that, and it's considerably more unfair to automatically give a person a huge advantage in a division rather than making them work in the division they should be in (see: Razor in D5 with a FGO AAA who moved up to D6). if a person is so poorly misplaced that they can't do well in the division below them, then they proceed to come to us, we re-evaluate them, and fix if necessary (like in your case).

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by Ryusei_

This is such a dangerous mindset to be in while placing people. Just because it has happened in a few cases does not mean it should be a factor when placing people by any stretch of the imagination.

Because 9 times out of 10, it does NOT happen.

Because that's totally what I based my decisions off of. Do you even bother to read the whole explanations, or just the little tid bits of things?

It seems to me most people here are pretty agreeable that with 6 divisions the placements can't get too much better than they are right now. We would need probably at the very least 10 divisions to even start coming close to covering everyone. Actually, that's what we use in the Custom tourney's we've been doing and even that's not enough. So when it comes to an official factor in that there's 600 signing up rather than the 100 I normally get we'd probably need at least 30 divisions.
Also, with most tournaments in other games there aren't different divisions at all. I believe when I asked AJ if they did divisions in ITG tournaments he said no and I was sad because obviously someone like me who can barely pass an 8 can't compete with mad matt. So at least here there is some chance.

[Ryusei_]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

no it's not, because if you're an underdog in a higher division, then chances are you're a dominator in the division below that,

You guys throw this logic around like there AREN'T dominators in each division anyways. Removing Razor from D5 didn't change the other 5 people that are clearly going to sweep up that division.

[TC_Halogen]

it's not POSSIBLE to have people fit perfectly when each division is upwards of 50 people. There will -always- be people who are really strong and aren't suitable for the division above them, and there will always be people who are too strong for a particular division and have to do the one below them

i'm sorry, but I can't take sob stories about divisions when I was put into the situation that I was in during the 4th official and I fought until every ounce of me had given up on Hardkore Atomic, at round 7. I barely had any FMOs, no FGOs, was easily an underdog, and at the time, could have probably fit in D4 without many complaints. I moved on, and fought regardless of where I was.

more people need to do the same. It's not a question of whether or not you're an underdog/dominator of your division - you were placed where you are and you're more than likely stuck with it. push and you can improve at the game and be rewarded, or sit there and take the fall, and miss out on the intense competition that ensues.

I wouldn't miss any part of the official if I have the chance, which is probably why when the later rounds come in, I'm going to be playing songs 500+ times just to try and clear that hurdle for each round.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

oh you :3

Ambient Angels

Me: this looks like an 11.
Kayla: jumpstream is too short
Me: it's really dense...
Kayla: pattern flows really well
Me: the jumpstream is 167 BPM
Kayla: it's only 20 seconds
Me: It's still an 11.
Kayla: nope.

(and we won't ever get each other to agree )

You forgot the part of my argument where I say that a good chunk of the chart is a 9, then a 10 then it has that dense blip. :3

But hey they decide to make it an 11 then that will be my 1st.

[Ryusei_]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

i'm sorry, but I can't take sob stories about divisions when I was put into the situation that I was in during the 4th official and I fought until every ounce of me had given up on Hardkore Atomic, at round 7. I barely had any FMOs, no FGOs, was easily an underdog, and at the time, could have probably fit in D4 without many complaints. I moved on, and fought regardless of where I was.

more people need to do the same.

This is very literally a "Well it was done to me unfairly so I can do it to everyone else, too!" argument. Clearly what we need is the perpetuation of imbalance rather than trying to fix it. /impressed