Homosexual Marriage

[thegeddupnoise]

I personally am Christian and I believe in the Bible, but there's no changing true feelings. Some people just like the same sex. There's nothing you can really do to change it. So, I don't approve of it, whatever. It's not my life. I don't see how the world would end if gay people marry.

[Lamoc]

If your going to be forced to spend the rest of your life with someone then you shuold have a say-so who it is. But that's getting a bit off topic.

Back on topic: That is exactly how I think people should be. You don't have to like homosexuals and you don't have to approve of it, but its not your life, you realy shouldn't have control over it. People should be more like thegeddupnoise.

[Mookage]

Personally I beleive homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals. I beleive this should be dealt with as sexism and racism were dealt with. If homosexuals want to get married then let them do it, it's their life and let them do what they want to do.

[FaintScent]

Marriage is a catholic sacrement between a man and a woman.
I do think that homosexuality is acceptable but i don't think that marriage is right well in the catholic way..
Many people in the modern world get married at gardens, at a law facility, in another country ...etc... but I just can't see why they could possibly get married in a church..
i'm not really sure if i'm making anysense but that's just how i feell.. although it may sound abit narrow minded.

[devonin]

Marriage is a catholic sacrement between a man and a woman.

As has been brought up far too many times already, Married is also a legal status that has not one single thing to do with religion, and that particular type of married is what we've been at least trying to discuss this whole time.

[Adude6464]

let the people be! they are human beings, they shouldn't be judged by who they like or if they're straight or not. its unfair. a lot of ppl at my high school support unstraight people. we even had a day of silence to support it. its fun. you ppl gotta try it. its kinda hard but it is fun.

[Lamoc]

i still support that day of silence. its a neat thing if everyone does it. but too many people are afraid of others knowing thier homosexual.

[lilshortieman]

Originally Posted by Lamoc

i still support that day of silence. its a neat thing if everyone does it. but too many people are afraid of others knowing thier homosexual.

dude.
not everyone who participates in that is gay.
My school actually had a day of silence for that, but it got moved because of parents complained about GLISTEN's positions on gay marriage. Some kids participated in it anyway.

[Chrissi]

Well, here is my narrow minded view on it.

There are two issues here:

Should homosexual couples be allowed to marry by the church?
and
Should homosexual couples be allowed to marry legally?

Many people find that they fit together nicely - you get married in a church by a minister who is also legally allowed to legally marry you. That's how the good old american way is. But keep in mind, you can also simply sign some documents stating you want to be married, so that you have a purely legal marriage. OR, you can have a purely religious marriage. If you don't care about the legal benefits and don't want to sign anything you can simply get married under the eyes of god. Hey, the government won't know you're married, but you will, and God will, and you can cohabit without any problems.

Now, the first one is a non-issue. We have a separation of church and state (in most countries that anyone FFR is from, I am certain). This means that the churches can do whatever they damn well please, and the law can't do nuts about it (as long as it isn't breaking the law). Now, I'm pretty sure since a church-marriage doesn't need to be legally verified, ANYONE can get married by a church, as long as you can find a church that will do it. You just won't have the legal counterpart. You can eve have polygamy and child marriages this way. Gays can already get married this way - why wouldn't they be able to, if they can find a church that is willing? I don't see how it would be against the law, since nothing legal is happening and all that's being done is a minister is saying some words.

The second one is also a non-issue. Legally, any two adults should be able to be married. This doesn't mean we're forcing churches to do anything. This just means that any two consenting adults who want to sign some forms should be allowed the privilege of being married. Why should we deny them this? Can you think of anything other than religion? There is nothing. The only argument is a religious aspect, and religion does not belong in law.

Therefore, I think I've settled the issue.

I probably have many inaccuracies, or this sort of thing WOULD be settled already, so if someone could point them out to me and argue, that would be appreciated.

[devonin]

So...religious marriage "If the religion wants to let them"
And..legal marriage "Universally between two consenting adults"

I'm pretty sure that's an outcome that almost everyone can agree with who in any way supports the seperation of church and state.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by devonin

So...religious marriage "If the religion wants to let them"
And..legal marriage "Universally between two consenting adults"

I'm pretty sure that's an outcome that almost everyone can agree with who in any way supports the seperation of church and state.

Pretty much. But there must be some objections, right? Because this is, from how I'm seeing it, what it boils down to. So what exactly are people objecting to?

[devonin]

People are objecting on the following grounds as near as I can tell:

1/ They insist on only viewing marriage as religious, and so disagree with marriage for homosexuals despite repeated attempts to point out the seperation between religious marriage and legal marriage.

2/ They feel that even though they know the difference between religious marriage and legal marriage they still legitimately seem to not want homosexuals allowed to be allowed the married status either.

3/ Attempts to rename legal marriage to a "civil union" or similar term meet with opposition from legally married couples who feel that this would somehow reduce or diminish the importance of their being married (usually on religious grounds yet again)

4/ Flat out, and more common than we realise, much to my chagrin, people just don't like homosexuals, have had it bred into them that it's dirty, wrong, gross, and inappropriate and simply don't want to extend rights to homosexuals that are currently the bailiwick of heterosexuals only.

I mean...in its own way, gay rights is a very similar battle to women's rights and black rights in America.

No amount of pointing out the inaccuracies to those who are set against it will do a damn thing. Have you ever tried to argue against a racist about the absurdity of racism? it's worse than talking to a brick wall, because brick walls don't spew ignorant hate speech.

One of the biggest problems that faced blacks in the civil rights era, that gays are facing now is that they are fighting for equal rights, but do so in a way that rubs the faces of everyone in the differences. Every gay pride parade sets gay rights back another 15 years. If this had been done quietly, through existing legal avenues, a few civil court trials pointing out that denying legal marriage to homosexuals is unconstitutional (which it is) and federal law would have allowed for it, and most of the problems would have simply gone away.

Edit: The worst possible way to try and get equal treatment is to stand on a hilltop and say "HELLO! LOOK AT ME! I'M DIFFERENT, BUT DON'T TREAT ME THAT WAY"

[Chrissi]

Hm....

I hope I can hear from someone who disagrees.

[Kamunt]

Originally Posted by devonin

People are objecting on the following grounds as near as I can tell:

3/ Attempts to rename legal marriage to a "civil union" or similar term meet with opposition from legally married couples who feel that this would somehow reduce or diminish the importance of their being married (usually on religious grounds yet again)

4/ Flat out, and more common than we realise, much to my chagrin, people just don't like homosexuals, have had it bred into them that it's dirty, wrong, gross, and inappropriate and simply don't want to extend rights to homosexuals that are currently the bailiwick of heterosexuals only.

You win this thread with your bolded paragraph there, just thought I'd point that out. Your third paragraph there, though, that is on the right path of the main reason why non-religious same-sex marriage opposers feel the way they do: they want to protect the sanctity of the term "marriage" for only a man and a woman. They are intermixed from there on out whether they are for "civil unions" and the sort or not (almost all of those that I know in RL that feel this way are pro-civil unions), but I respect this approach and applaud those who feel this way for not resorting to homophobia and/or discrimination (even though some might actually feel this inside, but don't show it). I see this reason for being anti-same sex marriage as the only real "respectable" refute against pro-same sex marriage, and feel that this is actually a good start for gay rights. Though I hope eventually that homosexual couples can engage in "marriage" with each other, I think that civil unions with the same rights as married couples is an excellent start and will pave the way for gay rights in the future.



....And again, would it really be all that bad to have less people being born each year?

[Lamoc]

People complain about how homosexuality is wrong and stuff, thats just rediculous. I also agree with what was posted before about homosexuals and children. This world realy can't handle many more people so I don't see any problem with not having kids for a change.

What the hell devonin? Gay Pride parades set us back 15 years? Are you on crack? It's the only way we can get people to recognize us. Sitting still like you suggested is pointless. People would continue to run over us. We have to show that we ARE here and we DO live in this world together weather you guys like it or not. We're just like any other human being, you guys are just too full of yourselfs to see that. If something is out of the ordinary you immediately think its wrong or not right. Get used to it.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Lamoc

What the hell devonin? Gay Pride parades set us back 15 years? Are you on crack? It's the only way we can get people to recognize us.

Whatever genius thought that parading thousands of naked men and women through busy downtown cores and having sex in the streets was the "right" way to gain any kind of acceptance is the one who is on crack.

The biggest and best argument in support of gay rights is that you aren't forcing other people to be gay, or even watch you be gay, just to grant you the same rights to do what you like -IN THE PRIVACY OF YOUR OWN HOME- as they have.

Explain to me how you're going to convince people that -MIGHT- be okay with, provided that you don't rub their face in it, to be okay with it when you make a foolish public spectacle of yourself.

You reinforce the views that there's something deviant and wrong about being homosexual when you go do what is already deemed inappropriate behavior for -everyone- and do so in a way that presents it as integral to your sub-culture.

That is how gay pride parades set back gay rights.

[Lamoc]

Naked males and females having sex in the street? What the **** kinda gay pride are you watching?

[devonin]

The kind that happen -all the time- in Canada and the United States.

[Lamoc]

Call me up next time you see this.

[devonin]

Call me up next time you've watched the news, read a newspaper or taken a particular interest in the affairs of the group you claim to support. It is -incredibly- common in many of the larger annual gay pride parades: San Francisco, Toronto, many others, for them to actually get themselves in a lot of trouble because many participants think it is a great idea to just really rub their homosexuality in the faces of anyone spectating. Seriously, any amount of time on google or youtube looking at info on gay pride parades of the past will back that up.