TWG XV - #twgxv (Humans Win. Huzzah.)

[Tasselfoot]

OK... The witness incident happened last night.

Chardish claims Jurs is the wolf.
Jurs claims Chardish is the wolf.

I am ROYALLY confused.


Here is my logic on Chardish being a wolf and his responses:

[15:19] TasselFoot: now talk to me about twg.
[15:19] TasselFoot: spill your damn guts to me.
[15:19] this is chardish: i have a bit of information that will make me look suspicious as fuck if i tell you.
[15:19] this is chardish: but i think this is the piece of the puzzle we need.
[15:20] TasselFoot: go ahead
[15:20] this is chardish: the wolves have been trying to set up alain, i think.
[15:20] this is chardish: we have the jurs conversation.
[15:21] this is chardish: we have the ap/alain tie.
[15:21] this is chardish: we have alain coming up in the forged conversation.
[15:22] this is chardish: and through all this, jurs has been alain's primary opponent. she's been grilling him nonstop, even on stupid issues that don't make a lot of sense.
[15:22] this is chardish: selective reasoning and whatnot.
[15:22] this is chardish: it's seemed too overzealous to me the whole time.
[15:22] TasselFoot: ok
[15:22] this is chardish: and now i think i know why.
[15:22] this is chardish: jurs is a wolf. last night i witnessed her killing guido.
[15:23] TasselFoot: no mention of it in your post...
[15:23] this is chardish: i know. i want to keep quiet about it.
[15:23] TasselFoot: k. i already knew about it.
[15:24] this is chardish: right now half the game already thinks i'm a wolf. if i mention that i witnessed somebody, it's not going to help my case.
[15:24] TasselFoot: well, jurs already told me about it.
[15:24] this is chardish: because people are going to think that means i'm a wolf, even though being involved in the witness event tells you nothing about a person's race.
[15:24] TasselFoot: all it says is that 1 of the 2 remaining wolves is either you or jurs
[15:24] this is chardish: right.
[15:25] TasselFoot: i gotta say....
[15:25] TasselFoot: i think its you.
[15:25] this is chardish: : (
[15:25] this is chardish: why, michael.
[15:26] this is chardish: if you buy what TPS is saying, then essentially you're accusing me of being the biggest TWG fuckup ever.
[15:26] this is chardish: i'm pretty insulted by this...especially coming from you.
[15:26] this is chardish: i didn't realize you held me at such low esteem : /
[15:28] TasselFoot: TasselFoot: 2. TPS is not a complete idiot, to the likes of matt, demon, spheroid. I can't see him screwing up THAT badly to Chardish.
TasselFoot: 3. Chardish posts a fucking SCREENSHOT of the convo.... which is just flat out odd.
TasselFoot: No one else has posted or really considered posting a screenshot.... but, if the whole thing is faked to begin with, the screenshot gives extra proof.
TasselFoot: 4. TPS' whole convo with chardish.... there just wasn't time for him to come up with and impliment the idea to use "Find All... Replace" on the convo to trick Chardish
TasselFoot: 5. Somehow, Chardish doesn't have the conversation saved.... yet he has random 1 liners that I've said 2 months ago saved.
TasselFoot: He logs EVERYTHING
TasselFoot: 6. Chardish waits 25 minutes to post the conversation he had with TPS. why?
TasselFoot: Only reason I can see is because he needed the time to fake the screenshot.
TasselFoot: 7. Why does Chardish continue talking to TPS 11 minutes later like nothing happened?
[15:29] this is chardish: 1) if i was really a photoshop wizard like you suggest, couldn't i have faked the screenshot hours in advance and posted it at exactly the right time?
[15:30] TasselFoot: but the conversation didn't happen until 20 minutes before
[15:30] TasselFoot: is that the only thing you can dispute?
[15:30] this is chardish: no, i'm going down the list. let me finish.
[15:30] TasselFoot: it starts with 2
[15:30] this is chardish: what's 1?
[15:30] TasselFoot: i gave up on #1... it wasn't solid.
[15:31] TasselFoot: and you responded to 3, skipping 2
[15:31] this is chardish: allright. let's start over.
[15:31] this is chardish: 2) TPS is stupid. Even if you buy his whole story, it's stupid that he would claim he wasn't going to reveal "another wolf" and then implicate alain in his fake conversation.
[15:32] this is chardish: 3) not odd at all. i figured that after the jurs/alain incident where they were both being selective about the conversation, it was more important to have concrete proof that i didn't cut anything out.
[15:32] this is chardish: how ironic that now that's exactly what i'm being accused of.
[15:33] this is chardish: i don't understand #4
[15:33] TasselFoot: issues with the timing.
[15:34] TasselFoot: more subjective.
[15:36] this is chardish: 4) responding to general timing issues, TPS had 45 minutes after his slip-up to use to create a fake conversation with whatever accomplice he chose. that's a long long time. it probably would have been smarter to post the screenshot quicker, but i was pretty giddy and trying to calm myself down and figure out the best COA. and even then you know how busy i am online. TWG is a priority for me but it is certainly not my first priority - especially when i had to leave for work in about a half hour.
[15:37] TasselFoot: you waited 25 minutes. then within 20 minutes of that (10 of which i was grilling him), he is focused enough to come up with all that?
[15:41] this is chardish: you know i don't think he acted alone.
[15:41] TasselFoot: ok
[15:41] TasselFoot: alain wasn't online
[15:41] TasselFoot: blah wasn't online
[15:41] this is chardish: (sorry, was pulled afk)
[15:41] TasselFoot: who helped him?
[15:41] this is chardish: was jurs online?
[15:41] TasselFoot: yes
[15:41] this is chardish: ding ding ding! we have a winner.
[15:41] TasselFoot: you think she came up with that??
[15:42] this is chardish: perhaps. it's not very good.
[15:42] TasselFoot: keep going on the list though. you have a few more.
[15:42] this is chardish: right.
[15:43] this is chardish: 5) once again, it's a far different story when my dad pulls the plug out of the wall. this one isn't the first conversation i've lost for such a reason, and i've even lost others in the past. my logs are mostly complete, but they are not comprehensive.
[15:44] this is chardish: 6) to fake a screenshot in photoshop would take a lot longer than 25 minutes. i held out because i was still deciding upon the best course of action.
[15:44] TasselFoot: could have come to me right away.
[15:44] TasselFoot: and, you only changed about 2-3 words.... if you did.
[15:45] this is chardish: yeah, if only i were as smart as you, tassie. ; )
[15:46] this is chardish: i imagine that was a smart consideration on the part of the forgers, to include the real conversation and alter a couple words to make the screenshot at least somewhat implausible.
[15:46] this is chardish: 7) I didn't. once again, this was part of the forgery, and the fact that you ask this question suggests that you're putting more faith in the forgery than the facts.



Also there is Chardish's logic on Jurs being a wolf, which seems solid reasoning to me, whether she is or not.


This is what Jurs said to me:

xTrialandErrorx: TASS
xTrialandErrorx: TASS
xTrialandErrorx: IM THE WITNESS
xTrialandErrorx: CHARDISH IS A WOLF.
TasselFoot: ok...
xTrialandErrorx: ...what?
TasselFoot: just the thought is still there that Chardish is the witness... and you're the wolf.
TasselFoot: so please, do not mention it to anyone
TasselFoot: don't post about it
TasselFoot: let me talk to chardish first
xTrialandErrorx: I wasn't. Okay.
TasselFoot: so i want to see his reaction, etc... cause, now clearly one of you two is a wolf.
xTrialandErrorx: Yeah well its not me.
TasselFoot: well, alain was seered. as soon as i can get that report, we should have some good information.
xTrialandErrorx: Swear to God. If i end up a wolf at the end of the day, I will give you my address and you can send me anthrax.
xTrialandErrorx: Alright
xTrialandErrorx: Good thing you seered alain instead of chardish.
xTrialandErrorx: Two in one.
TasselFoot: no point seering chardish. if he's a wolf, he is the master.
xTrialandErrorx: What if alain's the master, if he's a wolf.
TasselFoot: but... chardish is just ASKING to be seered, with everything tps said.
xTrialandErrorx: Yeah true.
xTrialandErrorx: Bah. If alain comes back as human then i'm going to look wolfish, but i swear to god. chardish is a wolf.
xTrialandErrorx: Eh
xTrialandErrorx: Alain's a human, isn't he? ;\
TasselFoot: i said i'd post about that tomorrow.
xTrialandErrorx: :\
TasselFoot: not too many people online now... so if i DO know something now... wolves might be able to peg who it is down to 2-3.
xTrialandErrorx: Well i swear i'm the witness
TasselFoot: so, i'll wait until tomorrow... which gives all the HS kids time to PM me from school without logging into AIM
xTrialandErrorx: i'll copy and paste the PM to you
xTrialandErrorx: yeah.
TasselFoot: no you won't
xTrialandErrorx:
TasselFoot: 1. against the rules = 2 game ban. 2. you could EASILY edit it.
xTrialandErrorx: copying and pasting PM's isn't always against the rules.
xTrialandErrorx: The hosts say it at the beginning of the game.
xTrialandErrorx: I remember last game they were like
xTrialandErrorx: "YOU CAN SHOW PEOPLE YOUR PM BUT THATS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY"
TasselFoot: i don't remember that...
xTrialandErrorx: I do.
TasselFoot: you didn't play last twg
xTrialandErrorx: right.
TasselFoot: maybe in aperson's game... but the even after he said that, TWC overruled him.
xTrialandErrorx: Oh.
*** "xTrialandErrorx" signed off at Wed May 11 23:34:00 2005.
*** You have been disconnected. Thu May 12 08:06:50 2005.
*** "xTrialandErrorx" signed on at Thu May 12 14:52:50 2005.
xTrialandErrorx: Chardish's post: He stated more than once how retarded it would be for him to do this, and by making everyone think this, they wouldn't vote for him and he could get away with it. He's a wolf, I don't even have to explain it because i'm the witness.
TasselFoot: i still need to speak to him
TasselFoot: he logged in and went afk right away
TasselFoot: and in his big ass post last night, he didn't mention the witness at all
xTrialandErrorx: Do you have any kind of trust in me that i'm telling the truth?
TasselFoot: i'll post once i talk to chardish
xTrialandErrorx: Alright.
TasselFoot: regardless, if we lynch chardish today and it comes back that he was human, you're dead tomorrow.
xTrialandErrorx: if he's the master wolf, he comes back human anyways or no?
xTrialandErrorx: I've never played a game with a master wolf.
TasselFoot: not to the psychic
xTrialandErrorx: Alright
xTrialandErrorx: Then lynch him.
TasselFoot: patience.
xTrialandErrorx: He'll come back wolf :P
xTrialandErrorx: mead1 also voted for spheroid on day 1, as did Chardish. that's it, really.Tps voted for flypie.
xTrialandErrorx: can I tell alain i'm the witness. because if he didn't come back wolf...then i guess i'm safe to tell him, right?
TasselFoot: no
TasselFoot: he could be mw... plus, i want to talk to chardish before any info on the witness comes out
xTrialandErrorx: Oh, alright.
xTrialandErrorx: I'm not going to even post yet, because I can take everything in chardish's post and turn it around against him. He'd know I was right, and would get suspicious that i know he's a wolf.
TasselFoot: i'm aware...
TasselFoot: and, yea. i'd put it 90% that chardish is the wolf. if not more.
TasselFoot: from my outside looking in.
TasselFoot: i already have my evidence written up
xTrialandErrorx: Alright.
xTrialandErrorx: Once you talk to him
xTrialandErrorx: can i tell the people that we know are humans that i witnessed chardish?
TasselFoot: no.
TasselFoot: i already told the blues.
xTrialandErrorx: Oh and supposedly according to the PM chardish was about to wolf me last night but switched to guido.
xTrialandErrorx: oh okay
TasselFoot: ok.... he did what is expected. i'll have a post within the hour
xTrialandErrorx: Alright.
xTrialandErrorx: which was what?
TasselFoot: he accused you of being the wolf
xTrialandErrorx: Haha
xTrialandErrorx: you told him i was the witness?
TasselFoot: no
TasselFoot: well, yes. afterwards.
TasselFoot: i let him tell me
xTrialandErrorx: Tell you that he witnessed someone?
TasselFoot: that he witnessed you
xTrialandErrorx: Ah
xTrialandErrorx: and that means what?
TasselFoot: that one of you is a wolf.
TasselFoot: and the other is human.
xTrialandErrorx: Yeah.



And, the only other thing for Jurs is that on either page 1 or page 2, she has a post that gives about 2 sentences attacking aperson.



I am honestly completely confused as to which one is the wolf and which is human. I want to be right about this choice people. One of them IS a wolf.

[JurseyRider734]

To everything in Chardish's post:

He wants you guys to think that pulling a stunt like that would be so retarded that he wouldn't do it. That way it makes him not look suspicious so he could pull it off. Don't let it slip easily. If we lynch chardish today, and he comes back in the seer report as human, you guys can kill me, and you can have my address to personally kill me or send anthrax or something like that. This is just how confident I am that he's a wolf. Hell, I don't even have to be confident because I know that i'm a human and I know that he's a wolf.

I'm sure if chardish said the same, he'd be lying.

And he knows that.

[nforcer06164]

This is the way I see it, after I thought about it during the last period at school.

Jurs, after thinking about it, is a less likely wolf. My suspicion on her has dropped. I think Chardish is the wolf. But, if he is, then Alain is almost undoubtedly a wolf with him. My reasoning is this: Chardish set TPS up, and TPS didn't really know about it. Why would he do this? To get the votes off Alain, who in this case is the Master Wolf, and shed off someone less useful (TPS). I don't think there'd be any other reason, if Chardish is indeed a wolf, to do what he did to TPS, ESPECIALLY if Alain is not a wolf.

Particularly thinking that Alain is the Master Wolf in this situation, I'm going to vote for him. In hopes that I am right, the seer will take a look at Jurs tonight and find out if she is a wolf or not. If she comes up human, then Chardish is undoubtedly the wolf. If not, then we're back to where we started.

[Tasselfoot]

nForcer.... worry about Alain tomorrow. Today is solely about Chardish/Jurs...

[JurseyRider734]

I'm going to go ahead and put my vote on chardish for obvious reasons.

[alainbryden]

nforcer:

Originally Posted by I

Yesterday, by the end of the day, I had felt confident that I had gotten through to people (especially Guido, infact) and was sure that the votes would soon be coming off me. There's no way I would have done something like that to save myself from being lynched, there was no way that it was necessary. As for Guido dying, Tass was suspicious of him because he was defending me so readily, and I found him helpful because of that, I really don't know why he was killed.

I already said that doesn't make sense.

Do I really have any choice but to vote Jursey? Besides, she doesn't seem to offer any new evidence against me in her conversation with Tass - she simply appears to be hammering in the idea that she's the witness (possibly to make it more improbable in Tass' mind that I am the witness?) She even goes so far as to discuss her PM with him to make her case more believable (rule violation!)

Someone seems a bit too desparate here.

[nforcer06164]

Well, see, if Chardish is a wolf, then Alain is almost undoubtedly the Master. We can't build anything more on Alain, seeing that he came up human. But, if Chardish is seered and he comes back wolf, and hoping that Alain is a wolf too, then we have our two wolves stuck in a corner, and the game is over. Don't forget that Alain was, in fact, saved by the TPS incident yesterday. I don't think it is coincidence. I think it was planned.

And Alain, your defense holds no substance, because you were saved by Chardish's accusation. We can't ask Guido, now, can we? It doesn't really fit together.

[Tasselfoot]

Chardish

I can argue this in my head a million times in both ways.... but from the 7 things I posted, there is just too much that doesn't add up. Combine that with Jurs' attack on ap early in day 1....

Nothing new is going to come from Jurs and Chardish fighting back and forth. It is going to be the same as Alain and Jurs fighting yesterday.

[Kilgamayan]

xTrialandErrorx: Oh and supposedly according to the PM chardish was about to wolf me last night but switched to guido.

Aha what?

We have long since established that there is to be no discussion of host-to-player Private Messages between players. The precedent for this was set by LD's actions in Squeek's Matrix game, and it was upheld in a later game against Cenright.

I am going to round up a TWC vote on whether or not Jursey should be removed from the game for this remark.

Of course, I will not say whether she is telling the truth or not.

[JurseyRider734]

Except I didn't copy and paste it OR send a screenshot.

[Kilgamayan]

That's irrelevant, because neither did Cenright.

[flypie743]

Kilga, that's just like saying "I'm human" because that was in the host-to-player PM =/

[blahblah18]

this shouldn't clutter the thread.

[Kilgamayan]

There's a difference. The issue at hand is the reference to Guido, not that one person saw the other accidentally send the virus to the wrong target.

[Kilgamayan]

The TWC has reached a decision.

No action will be taken.

Carry on.

[mead1]

That seems a little petty Kilga, but that's just me...

My vote is going to Chardish this day. I was really suspicious of Jurs yesterday, but I talked to her for awhile today, and my suspicions have been allayed. So if we know it is her or chard, I guess it has to be chard. Also, I like nforcer's reasoning as to why alain might be MW. It adds up quite well in my mind. I did say previously that I thought alain was a human, but I have been wrong countless times before.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

The TWC has reached a decision.

No action will be taken.

Carry on.

No, no we haven't.

[17:22] Evan: you do not abstain from a TWG vote
[17:22] *** Auto-response from Guido: Game o' Gunbound.
[17:23] Evan: you decide, one way or the other
[17:23] Evan: we have 5 so there's no such thing as a tie
[17:23] Guido: Fine, just give me a few.

EDIT: this does not count as discussing the game with the dead since this is a TWC matter, and has nothing to do with strategy, etc.

[alainbryden]

nforcer you're wrong, I wasn't saved by that movement yesterday.

I had made my defence, and people were willing to switch their votes. It makes no sense that when I was in such good shape.

What's more I don't care what any of you think of me but I would never ever sacrifice another player for my own credibility.

[Tasselfoot]

I have to switch to Jurs

[17:31] this is chardish: i'm STILL really pissed that you think TPS' story holds water.
[17:32] this is chardish: that you think that not only I'm a wolf, that I WOULD COME UP WITH A FAKE STORY TO DO IN ANOTHER WOLF!
[17:32] TasselFoot: there are too many holes in your story.
[17:32] this is chardish: that's RIDICULOUS!
[17:32] TasselFoot: i think that for that exact reason, you might try it.
[17:32] this is chardish: bullshit. i'm not that dumb.
[17:33] this is chardish: i'm very pissed and very insulted.
[17:33] this is chardish: i expect a full apology from you after the game.
[17:33] TasselFoot: ugh.
[17:34] TasselFoot: i'm still not sure.

I have to give Chardish some level of credit.... to be a wolf and kill TPS is beyond retarded. Regardless of the holes.